Audio Video Revolution Forum  

Go Back   Audio Video Revolution Forum > High Resolution Music: CD, SACD, DVD-Audio and more > Vinyl

Vinyl Long live the LP. Post topics about LPs, players, setup and more.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-03-2009   #73
Member
 
paoloop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: bruxelles/belgium
Posts: 10
Wink Re: CD vs Vinyl

Measures and ears..a very old debate. What we should have learned from past history (remember the Japanese amplifiers with zero point zero zero zero...distortion and a terrible sound?) is that if our ears disagree from measures, there's something to investigate..with measures.
I remember beeing very skeptical about the sound of cables, dismissing it as commercial hype..until and old Physics student of mine who had got an hifi shop convinced me to try some cables: and I had to believe to my ears; so I went back to theory and discovered cables are not pure resistances but also capacitances, impedences, and all of that less than pefect.
So if listening to vinyl we find it better than CD (not always, but a lot of times), there's something we are missing in the theory..
and of course there is: Shannon's theorem (or Nyquist-Shannon if you prefer) applies to an ideal sampling made with infinite samples (and the resulting limited bandwidth): in real life you have nothing like that, and there's no antialiasing filter that can solve the problem: it's just a bandaid. So also in theory the CD (and even SACD) has a lot of limitations. (It's not by chance that also in CD players you have to spend a lot of money to get a good sound...)
I also agree that many problems with CDs come from horrible masterizations-but you can say the same of a lot of LPs; but when you get the same good master pressed on vinyl and CD-the vinyl sounds better!
And, by the way, just forget about hiss and scratches: that's old time legend; with modern phonopres you have a much higher acceptance, so all the impulses coming from dust are no more amplified; they just disappear or are very low-and on a good record you have a real 'black' background. Yes, you have to pay for that...but still you can get a very decent system with no more than a thousand bucks...and already appreciate vinyl over CD.
paoloop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2009   #74
Member
 
BillD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 13
Default Re: CD vs Vinyl

I'm certainly no vinyl hater; I have ten feet of shelf space packed with LPs (and a little space to overflow). Moreover, I'm not one of those "if you can't measure it, it ain't there" guys, even though I am an engineer. But, I am enough of an engineer to be curious about things rather than believing in voodoo. I believe that vinyl sounds different because the way it was produced. The vinyl record has some serious fidelity shortcomings that were made up for in the RIAA equalization curve, which looks almost like a straight slide centered at 1kHz with a 20dB boost at 20Hz and a 20dB cut at 20kHz. We are accustomed to hearing this frequency dependent compression/expansion applied to all vinyl with various stages of accuracy. We are in fact so familiar with the way vinyl sounds, it is the de facto benchmark. Therefore, to us that have grown up with vinyl, it will always sound better. To those that haven't........ The same goes for tubes (although there are some better technical arguments about even versus odd distortion harmonics that favor tubes). But overall distortion figures for tube amps pall by comparison to SS amps, and they can't even touch SS for sheer power. The fact is that us aficionados grew up hearing tube amps, and we therefore use them to compare all others to. This is true of vinyl too, even though CDs, like SS amps are "technically" far superior (or should be if recorded correctly). And, the music medium is becoming more and more digital with synthesizers, electric pianos, even digital guitars. Converting this stuff to analog to put on a tape to drive a master cutter, etc. isn't doing the music any favors.

So, we are at a crossroads. There's a younger generation of audiophiles growing up that never had established vinyl as a benchmark. High fidelity is a better set of earbuds for their iPod and ripping CDs to MP3 at a VBR of up to 320 kbps. Sure, some will inherit their dad's stereo and come to embrace true high fidelity, but I doubt it will be reminiscing about vinyl and tube amps. To them, vinyl will have flaws overcome by the digital medium. It will be clumsy to use (what do you mean I have to turn the album over and carefully place the stylus on the record). Their sound reference will be the iPod, or their dad's stereo. Only those kids that grew up with an audiophile of the Tube Amp/Vinyl era for a parent will likely have the same frame of reference (a vanishingly small number). And it's not all that bad, just different.

Remember, there are no absolutes in this hobby. It's all about how it sounds to you. WHile all people hear similarly, no two people hear exactly alike, and personal preference plays a part too. So, to the poster who said "have you ever heard The Beatles 'Love' album on vinyl - enough said", I prefer it on DTS 5.1 surrround off a DVD-A at 24-bit 96kHz.
__________________
It should sound like it isn't there
Making life enjoyable though expensive electronics
BillD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2009   #75
Member
 
paoloop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: bruxelles/belgium
Posts: 10
Thumbs down Re: CD vs Vinyl

Sorry, but most of the things BillD says are not verifiable so of little use. I for instance didn't grow up with tubes, and as for vinyl, yes, I grew accostumed to them, but for many years forgot all and went with CDs. So all my opinions are the result of a (recent) comparison, many times starting from disbelief. Since I'm a phisycist I'm always skeptical about unproved or 'strange' phenomena- but that is just the point of departure. (And RIAA addiction is no fact).
I think you should try some little home made esperiment, like taking a vinyl and a CD from the same good master tape, and listen.
Of course there's much difference that comes out from your setup, so you should optimize it too...but that's where the fun is!
And you shouldn't take things for granted-like the superiority of CDs-or even of 5.1 (Did you ever make a comparison? I wanted to do it, but a fair one involved buying 2 more sets of very good speakers and amplifiers...so I'll have to postpone it for better times....)
paoloop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2009   #76
Member
 
BillD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 13
Default Re: CD vs Vinyl

You will note the use of the words "I believe" in my post. These are my beliefs. They are not any better than your beliefs, nor are your beliefs any better than mine. You believe vinyl sounds better. I believe the more modern formats do. I think there is a lot of science backing up my position, and a lot of anecdotal evidence backing up yours. I'm looking for a reason for this, and I have come to the conclusion (MY conclusion) that it must be familiarity, or just going with the crowd (the audiophile crowd seems to hold vinyl as a darling — like tubes). I'll give you the benefit of the doubt about not being just a follower.
__________________
It should sound like it isn't there
Making life enjoyable though expensive electronics
BillD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2009   #77
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Houston
Posts: 6
Default Re: CD vs Vinyl

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillD View Post
Remember, there are no absolutes in this hobby. It's all about how it sounds to you. WHile all people hear similarly, no two people hear exactly alike, and personal preference plays a part too. So, to the poster who said "have you ever heard The Beatles 'Love' album on vinyl - enough said", I prefer it on DTS 5.1 surrround off a DVD-A at 24-bit 96kHz.
That quote was intended for those who are comparing Cd's to Vinyl which is the title of this thread, given the choice between Cd and Vinyl there may be a big difference in what you prefer.

Cd's to me leave out the soul of the music.

My wife summed it up by saying with vinyl you can totally relax, Cd's keep you on edge.

And like I said if Cd's are so superior then why did they bother to invent SACD's?

I would like to sample Blu Ray music to see how that sounds, if it's superior I would have no problem getting a player, but if it is not supported like SACD I don't see the point.

Most of the music I like is from the 70's and 80's and I can pick up a good album for a third the price of a used Cd.

It's funny to read reviews on high end Cd players how they usually say they have an analog like sound, if that's what people are striving for why not go straight to the source.

But this is all only my opinion.
Hypnotoady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2009   #78
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Houston
Posts: 6
Default Re: CD vs Vinyl

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillD View Post
You will note the use of the words "I believe" in my post. These are my beliefs. They are not any better than your beliefs, nor are your beliefs any better than mine. You believe vinyl sounds better. I believe the more modern formats do. I think there is a lot of science backing up my position, and a lot of anecdotal evidence backing up yours. I'm looking for a reason for this, and I have come to the conclusion (MY conclusion) that it must be familiarity, or just going with the crowd (the audiophile crowd seems to hold vinyl as a darling — like tubes). I'll give you the benefit of the doubt about not being just a follower.
Regarding tubes, I recently purchased a Pro-Ject Tube Box II phono preamp and compared it to similarly priced SS units and it blows them away, I use some Phillip/Amperex tubes and they sound unbelievable. Not what I remember from tube amps from the 60's with there rich honey like sound.

Also be care full of science, did you ever read the article where Bob Carver made his $800.00 amp sound like a $4000.00 one of Stereophiles choice.

Here's a snippet:

"And he promised that he would make all the mods within his own hotel room near the Stereophile offices, far away from his lab and his company headquarters. Carver won. The egotistical, golden-eared editors of this magazine could not hear the difference between Carver’s new amp and the extremely expensive rival. They would throw the switch and nobody could accurately report which amp they were listening to."

We do not understand everything there is to sound and the way we perceive it so it's folly to say because something measures better then it must be better just as Bob Carver proved.
Hypnotoady is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Reply

Tags
blu, cd, cds, compact, comparison, difference, disc, forum, lossless, quality, ray, sound, versus, vinyl, vs

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Marriage of Vinyl and CD tigeraudio2007 Vinyl 4 08-26-2012 03:16 PM
Why isn't this on vinyl?? AVRevForum.com Vinyl 20 08-26-2012 03:09 PM
Making the switch: CD to vinyl Sound-of-Muzak Vinyl 8 06-22-2011 01:01 AM
600 gr vinyl-hype? figaro Vinyl 4 03-22-2010 09:04 AM
I found my old Metallica Master of Puppets Vinyl last night Neil Peart Vinyl 4 09-24-2007 11:29 AM




SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1