Audio Video Revolution Forum  

Go Back   Audio Video Revolution Forum > Everything HDTV, High-end Video, HD DVD, Blu-ray and beyond > Video Projectors

Video Projectors Talk projectors, screens, technology and more.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-28-2008   #13
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 5
Default Re: LCD VsDLP projectors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lotus View Post
It isn't like LCD vs Plasma where Plasma does some things better, right now DLP isn't doing much better, and it costs too much.
A good single chip DLP vs. the JVC RS-1 has the advantage of no convergence error, better
flat field linearity, better mixed field contrast, sharper image, often a better ANSI contrast. The RS-1 cannot be calibrated for accurate color, lens has more CA issues than a simple limited zoom range single chip DLP projector. DLP does not suffer from motion blur, unlike LCD/SXRD/DILA, no burn in either.

90% + of the population does NOT see rainbows, and this number is going up with the new
high speed, six segment color wheels. There are DLP projectors available in the $2K range.

There is a reason why DLP projectors are the most popular, particularly in higher end home
theaters and for commercial digital theaters.
Alfredino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2008   #14
Super Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 938
Default Re: LCD VsDLP projectors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfredino View Post
A good single chip DLP vs. the JVC RS-1 has the advantage of no convergence error, better
flat field linearity, better mixed field contrast, sharper image, often a better ANSI contrast. The RS-1 cannot be calibrated for accurate color, lens has more CA issues than a simple limited zoom range single chip DLP projector. DLP does not suffer from motion blur, unlike LCD/SXRD/DILA, no burn in either.

90% + of the population does NOT see rainbows, and this number is going up with the new
high speed, six segment color wheels. There are DLP projectors available in the $2K range.

There is a reason why DLP projectors are the most popular, particularly in higher end home
theaters and for commercial digital theaters.
So the RS-1 at my friend's house that is ISF calibrated and color accuracy is amazing is make believe? The fact that it won every award for best projector between either $3500 and $10000 or $5k to $10k, etc. was because DLP was superior? The fact that I've compared the units side by side and I personally find the RS-1 superior (last year) was what my error that just happened to be agreed with by the majority of reviewers out there?

There are 1080p DLP projectors in the $2k range? Really? Care to enlighten us on them?

The RS-1's replacement, the RS-1X, is better without any convergence issues with component inputs (like the RS-1 had). As for DLPs having better ANSI contrast, and better mixed field contrasts... that is news to me and all my firm's test results. The RS-1 wasn't perfect, but the RS-1X is an improvement on the RS-1. The RS-2 is about the most film like projector you can buy, period.

If you want to start talking about $35,000+ projectors that is an entirely different arguement. I love my Runco, and it cost as much as my first house. I don't think it belongs in the same conversation as such. Also I don't think people here are interested in getting a commercial digital theater. So I didn't even bother to put that in the comparison.

10% is a lot of people that suffer from Rainbow Effect. Since the new infocus IN83 has a 4X color wheel, even the aggressively priced 1080p darkchip4 units have issues.

Motion Blur can be an issue on many lower priced LCD units. It is slightly noticable on the SXRD units, but even less so on HD-ILA units.

I stand by the statement that DLP is out of the conversation due to PRICE.
Lotus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2008   #15
Super Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 938
Default Re: LCD VsDLP projectors

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheListeningRoom View Post
I would strongly advise against spending more than $2500 on a projector. I say this because over the last five years, we've seen such significant improvements in projector quality and technology that the best-reviewed models that sold for $7500 one year are typically inferior to the new models at half that price the following year.
This was surely the case early on in the DLP/LCOS development. There were 720p projectors that would blow away units that cost much more just the year before in PQ. I think that started to die down about 1 year ago in the LCOS side of things. On the DLP side we're still seeing massive improvements and at some point a 3chip DLP may be affordable.

The RS-1 for instance was $6500 when it was released. It has been a year. There isn't a $3250 unit out that is better than the RS-1. I don't think the Sony VW-50 is inferior to units half it's cost either. However the RS-1 can be bought as the HD-1 for $4500.

Quote:
At about $2500 street price you can get an exceptional 1080p HD model from a variety of manufacturers. And if in 3 years you want to upgrade, you can spend another $2500 and I'm confident it will be vastly superior to anything you can get for less than $10K today.
I'm not so sure about that. I think the industry has peaked on that particular curve. I think you're safe in assuming it will be superior to units that cost $5,000 today.

Quote:
One key feature to keep in mind about projectors is ease of placement. Zoom range, throw ratio, lens shift ability, etc. can make a huge difference in how easy it is to fit a projector in your specific space, so do remember to take this into consideration when evaluating models.
Right now the "champion," so to speak of the $2500 price group is the Epson Home Cinema 1080UB. That unit is extremely friendly when it comes to placement. This is a big issue, and knowing where you can place a unit, the size screen you desire can help eliminate a lot of choices in many circumstances.

Quote:
For screens, I don't have personal experience with the Goo screens, but I do really like the price/performance ratio of the DA-LITE and Draper screens. I find some of the cheaper brands to offer inferior quality, and the more expensive brands to not offer sufficient value for the price.
That pretty much is my opinion. However I have had experience with the Goo screens, and a well installed Goo Screen is a steal, a poorly installed Goo screen is a waste of money. Still, there are people who paint 2 or more screens a week on average out there in many markets. These guys have it down to a fine art. They can provide you an EXCEPTIONAL screen for $400 to $500. It won't have the professional look of an on-wall unit, but for budget shoppers it's an excellent option.

I fully agree though if you're going to go with a screen, Da-Lite and Draper have amazing price/performance ratios. Stewart Screens are the best. They are just over-priced. If price doesn't matter and all that matters is performance buy a Stewart.

Quote:
I would also advise ensuring you have enough money in your budget for quality audio gear. Sometimes people have a tendency to spend most of their money on video, and leave the audio part as an afterthought. But when you're replicating the movie theater experience at home, audio plays a huge part in conveying the emotional impact of movies. Balance your budget across both audio and video and you'll end up with a far more enjoyable system in the end.
Heck, double your budget on audio over your video. If you spend $3500 on video, spend $7000 on Audio. Make sure you consider accoustic treatments too. $1,000 well spent on treating your room can make it sound better than systems that cost over twice as much.
Lotus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2008   #16
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 5
Default Re: LCD VsDLP projectors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lotus View Post
So the RS-1 at my friend's house that is ISF calibrated and color accuracy is amazing is make believe? The fact that it won every award for best projector between either $3500 and $10000 or $5k to $10k, etc. was because DLP was superior? The fact that I've compared the units side by side and I personally find the RS-1 superior (last year) was what my error that just happened to be agreed with by the majority of reviewers out there?

There are 1080p DLP projectors in the $2k range? Really? Care to enlighten us on them?

The RS-1's replacement, the RS-1X, is better without any convergence issues with component inputs (like the RS-1 had). As for DLPs having better ANSI contrast, and better mixed field contrasts... that is news to me and all my firm's test results. The RS-1 wasn't perfect, but the RS-1X is an improvement on the RS-1. The RS-2 is about the most film like projector you can buy, period.

10% is a lot of people that suffer from Rainbow Effect. Since the new infocus IN83 has a 4X color wheel, even the aggressively priced 1080p darkchip4 units have issues.

Motion Blur can be an issue on many lower priced LCD units. It is slightly noticable on the SXRD units, but even less so on HD-ILA units.

I stand by the statement that DLP is out of the conversation due to PRICE.
Lotus, while I'm sure you take your proclamations from the mound seriously, it doesn't make
them so.

A few examples of 1080P DLP projectors that sell for under $3000:

Optoma HD80
Infocus X10
BenQ W5000

Here is what my eyes tell me, and I don't need reviewers to help me see what I should see:
(Art from Projector Reviews is a nice guy, but not very technical)

There is zero motion blur attributable to DLP chips, unlike all the LCD based displays.

I've yet to see an SXRD or DILA projector that is as sharp as DLP single or 3 chip projectors.

All three chip, whether LCD/SXRD/DILA or DLP have convergence error. Correction circuits
cannot correct non-linear errors.

Compare the ANSI contrast of the best DLP projectors to the SXRD or DILA projectors, DLP
can have an ANSI contrast of 600-800:1 vs. about 250-550:1 for the LCD based units.

DLP projectors don' exhibit the highlight compression that LCD based projectors with auto
iris often exhibit, yielding a better mixed field contrast ratio.

The oversaturated, inaccurate primary and secondary colors of the RS-1 are well documented on the more technical sites and are not completely correctable, no matter
how experienced the ISF tech. It is also useless in anamorphic lens setups.

Don't get me wrong, I saw an RS-2 just last week and felt that it had fantastic blacks, a
very natural image, anybody would be happy with the projector. But it still didn't have
the three dimensional image and sharpness that good DLP projectors offer, IMO.

I rather like the fact that I can go to a commercial digital theater and watch a movie
displayed with DLP technology and then go home and get a similar experience. Your
idea of "filmlike" and mine are not the same--to me soft does not equal filmlike.

You have your preferences, I have mine. I would never proclaim that one technology "is
out of the conversation". That just exudes a combination of arrogance and ignorance.
Alfredino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2008   #17
Super Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 938
Default Re: LCD VsDLP projectors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfredino View Post
Lotus, while I'm sure you take your proclamations from the mound seriously, it doesn't make
them so.
Right but your proclamations are gospel I suppose.

Quote:
A few examples of 1080P DLP projectors that sell for under $3000:

Optoma HD80
Infocus X10
BenQ W5000
Ok so "$2k range," means "under $3000," to you.

Quote:
Here is what my eyes tell me, and I don't need reviewers to help me see what I should see:
(Art from Projector Reviews is a nice guy, but not very technical)
I've never quoted Art from Projector Reviews. I based my opinion on my own tests. Plus what I've read from EVERYONE else.

Quote:
There is zero motion blur attributable to DLP chips, unlike all the LCD based displays.
There is zero rainbow effect atrributable to LCD.

Quote:
I've yet to see an SXRD or DILA projector that is as sharp as DLP single or 3 chip projectors.
You've likely yet to look. While the RS-2 might not be as sharp as many DLPs out there, it is sharp enough and combined with the contrast performance, etc. is amazing.

Quote:
All three chip, whether LCD/SXRD/DILA or DLP have convergence error. Correction circuits
cannot correct non-linear errors.
Is this error noticable on all these units? Should I take back my Runco? Please.

Quote:
Compare the ANSI contrast of the best DLP projectors to the SXRD or DILA projectors, DLP
can have an ANSI contrast of 600-800:1 vs. about 250-550:1 for the LCD based units.
The RS2 has higher ratings than that. Sorry.

Quote:
DLP projectors don' exhibit the highlight compression that LCD based projectors with auto
iris often exhibit, yielding a better mixed field contrast ratio.
Are the JVC units using an Auto Iris?

Quote:
The oversaturated, inaccurate primary and secondary colors of the RS-1 are well documented on the more technical sites and are not completely correctable, no matter
how experienced the ISF tech. It is also useless in anamorphic lens setups.
True it's useless in anamorphic setups, but the RS-2 is not. As to the rest of your statement I call BS. I've run my own tests, and the RS-1 is pretty accurate, and definitely one of the most accurate in its price range. It even comes out of the box more accurate than the competition. Most of the people complaining on those sites are people with a reason to bitch: they're generally dealers totally in bed with DLP.

Quote:
Don't get me wrong, I saw an RS-2 just last week and felt that it had fantastic blacks, a
very natural image, anybody would be happy with the projector. But it still didn't have
the three dimensional image and sharpness that good DLP projectors offer, IMO.

I rather like the fact that I can go to a commercial digital theater and watch a movie
displayed with DLP technology and then go home and get a similar experience. Your
idea of "filmlike" and mine are not the same--to me soft does not equal filmlike.
Right, but since my opinion seems to be shared by the majority of professionals I'll just learn to live with my opinion.

Quote:
You have your preferences, I have mine. I would never proclaim that one technology "is
out of the conversation". That just exudes a combination of arrogance and ignorance.
Arrogance? Maybe. Ignorance? Hardly.

I could just as easily call you arrogant, etc. for your DLP obsession. I stand by the fact that DLP is out of the conversation due to PRICE.

The 3 units you mentioned aren't good DLP units. Yet the $2,500 Epson is a GOOD LCD unit. To get the true benefits of DLP you have to spend too much money. As one poster here stated there is little reason to spend more than $2500.

The point of diminishing returns is easily that $2500 price point. While I personally believe the RS-2 is worth every extra penny, it isn't for everyone. Maybe things will change and DLP will get a nice projector under $3,000. Until then we just wait.

It isn't like I'm taking my Runco SC-1 back. Yet my use is not the norm.
Lotus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2008   #18
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 5
Default Re: LCD VsDLP projectors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lotus View Post
Right but your proclamations are gospel I suppose.
I'm not the one who dismissed an extremely well regarded, popular technology out of hand,
the technology used most often in high-end applications.

Quote:
Ok so "$2k range," means "under $3000," to you.
Yes.

Quote:
I've never quoted Art from Projector Reviews. I based my opinion on my own tests. Plus what I've read from EVERYONE else.
You're right, that's the link that other posters have listed.

Quote:
There is zero rainbow effect atrributable to LCD.
Indeed. Funny how you forgot to mention motion blur in your earlier dissertations of the
various technologies flaws. Rainbows affect a very small percentage of the population.
Convergence, blurring, softness, CA, white field, black field uniformity issues can be there
all the time, every time with LCD based panels.

Quote:
You've likely yet to look. While the RS-2 might not be as sharp as many DLPs out there, it is sharp enough and combined with the contrast performance, etc. is amazing.
I have looked, even the RS-2 hasn't gotten there yet, as you just noted. Sharp enough
may be okay for you, but don't assume it's good enough for others--not those who've seen
good DLP projectors. I know a lot of people who had DLP, bought an RS-1 and sold it, only
to go back to a DLP projector. I'm sure there are many who are quite happy with the RS-1
or VW-50, VW-100. Depends on image quality priorities. Contrast performance of the JVC's
and newest SXRD's is extremely good.

Quote:
Is this error noticable on all these units? Should I take back my Runco? Please.
Maybe not from viewing distance, but it doesn't mean it's not there. I had CRT projectors
for years, happy to get away from convergence issues with single chip DLP. YMMV.

Quote:
The RS2 has higher ratings than that. Sorry.
Good to know. I was so disappointed with the RS-1 after all the hype that I haven't kept
up with the RS-2 specs.

Quote:
Are the JVC units using an Auto Iris?
I didn't specifiy JVC in this case, certainly Sony and other LCD brands use auto iris.

Quote:
True it's useless in anamorphic setups, but the RS-2 is not. As to the rest of your statement I call BS. I've run my own tests, and the RS-1 is pretty accurate, and definitely one of the most accurate in its price range. It even comes out of the box more accurate than the competition. Most of the people complaining on those sites are people with a reason to bitch: they're generally dealers totally in bed with DLP.
No, most of the people complaining on sites like AVS Forum are very knowledgeable, long
time enthusiasts whose expertise is at least as good as any of the reviewers.

Quote:
Right, but since my opinion seems to be shared by the majority of professionals I'll just learn to live with my opinion.
I've been a Director of Photography for over 25 years. I'd count myself as a professional.
I've had front projection systems since 1993, HD sources since 1999.

Quote:
Arrogance? Maybe. Ignorance? Hardly.

I could just as easily call you arrogant, etc. for your DLP obsession. I stand by the fact that DLP is out of the conversation due to PRICE.
Already proven wrong--a BenQ W5000 can be bought for under $2500 any day of the week.
It is not considered to be a piece of junk.

Quote:
The 3 units you mentioned aren't good DLP units. Yet the $2,500 Epson is a GOOD LCD unit. To get the true benefits of DLP you have to spend too much money. As one poster here stated there is little reason to spend more than $2500.

The point of diminishing returns is easily that $2500 price point. While I personally believe the RS-2 is worth every extra penny, it isn't for everyone. Maybe things will change and DLP will get a nice projector under $3,000. Until then we just wait.
You can't have it both ways. You say more than $2500 is the point of diminishing returns,
yet you'll spend three times that on an RS-2.

I think we're all very fortunate to be able to have so many amazing projectors at such low
price points compared to just a couple of years ago, no matter the technology.

I am not DLP obsessed, I'm just enamored with the sharpest(non-artificially enhanced)
brightest, most three dimensional image I can afford that doesn't have optical issues, convergence and white/black field uniformity problems or overall softness. I get that with single chip DLP, even though it has its own set of issues/compromises.
Alfredino is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Reply

Tags
6500, 7500, avsforum, bright, brightness, draper, epson, firehawk, g3, in83, lcd, plasma, projector, projectors, rs2, versus, vsdlp

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Scalers for 4k projectors JerryDelColliano Video Projectors 10 02-14-2012 08:26 AM
Samsung Delivers 2nd Generation LED LCD HDTV with the Series 9 LCD HDTVs AVRevForum.com Plasma and LCD HDTV 0 07-25-2008 11:33 AM
Laser Projectors rex Video Projectors 8 07-11-2008 09:57 AM
Sony releases two more high powered LCD projectors AVRevForum.com Video Projectors 0 11-28-2007 11:09 AM
Mitsubishi Debuts Good, Better, Best LCD 1080p Projectors AVRevForum.com Video Projectors 0 09-06-2007 01:20 PM




SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1