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Old 02-26-2010   #115
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Default Re: High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differences?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
However, high-end audio companies (what we're really talking about here) have nothing against double-blind tests whatsoever. In fact, most audio companies, high-end or otherwise, use double-blind tests in-house extensively during design of their products.
Which companies do this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
A high-end audio manufacturer suggesting that test measurements are not the full story to express the whole of human hearing isn't "whining" or even minimizing the importance of measurable tests. It's simply putting measureable results into perspective and acknowledging that such measurements have limits. Once you've double-blind auditioned two components that "measure the same" and heard distinct differences between them, it's not so hard to undrestand.
Which measurements have limits?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
BTW, the irony of what won me over to replace my speaker wire with higher-end stuff was a double-blind test! I had heard the difference, which sounded pretty dramatic to my ear (tighter bass and much cleaner, airier highs) with a higher-end Monstor cable, but I didn't have the luxury of doing an A/B double blind test on myself. So I didn't tell my roommate that I had changed anything in the system.
Then you better phone up james randi and collect your $1,000,000 prize.
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Old 02-26-2010   #116
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Default Re: High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differences?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post
I also feel that this is the best type of "blind" test... the listener doesn't even know if anything has been changed. That removes the emotional trigger to think that something *should* sound different as people often try to hear differences if they think that they should.




I randomly visit this forum from time to time. I'm David Boulet a dvd reviewer at dvdfile.com and have been registered here on the forum since the days of debating HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc.


(different poster)


The only "scientific" comparison would be use the same equipment that I used keeping all variables the same. Another test with a different system with different equipment has no basis for comparison whatsoever.

It's astonishing how very fundamentals of empirical testing like this are completely lost on so many who post in the name of "science".
I agree 100% with you on this.

p.s. You are David, not Dave.
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Old 03-21-2010   #117
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Default Re: High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differences?

For those wondering who the "Steve Bruzonsky" posting here at this forum really is, one only need look at the photobucket website where "DougWinsor" posts all of the photos he uses in his threads at this and other AV forums where he goes by the name "Steve Bruzonsky". Poor Doug can't use the name "Steve Bruzonsky" at AVS Forums because I have used my name there since 1999!

http://s716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/



Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
I was wondering if anyone had some objective data or even and explanation as to why a high end processor would sound better then a low end processor/receiver. I understand that subjective listening plays a role in what people prefer and that some audiophiles look at audio more as a hobby but is there a hardware reason that impacts sound quality? I am not talking about double blind tests and the side that states everything sounds the same but as of yet I have not found any objective data that would justify this night and day difference. I have searched the internet for sometime and found a profile on photobucket that has quite a selection of photo's, yes some people will know the name but it is irrelevant, I will post them below. Mods if you want to change all the IMG pictures back into a text link that is ok.

If you are going to post something along the lines of the high end having a better design or using better parts could you please post some information to clarify those statements.

Thank you.




Theta digital casablanca III



ExtremePremium.jpg
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Arcam FMJ AVR600/FMJ AV888

http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/w...id_off_top.jpg
arcam-avr600-internal-dsp.jpg
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arcam-avr600-modules.jpg
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arcam-avr600-powersupply.jpg



B&K reference 70


P1010021.jpg



Cary cinema 11a

http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/w...inema_11-2.jpg



Classe SSP-800


SSP800-Board1.jpg
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Krell evolution 707

http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/w...707inside2.jpg
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Lexicon MC-12


smr_41.jpg



Mark Levinson Nº 40

http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/w...udio-proce.jpg
mark-levinson-no-40-ssp-video-proce.jpg



Mcintosh MX135 MX136

http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/w...r/HPIM0635.jpg
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Old 03-24-2010   #118
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Default Re: High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differences?

"Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
However, high-end audio companies (what we're really talking about here) have nothing against double-blind tests whatsoever. In fact, most audio companies, high-end or otherwise, use double-blind tests in-house extensively during design of their products.

Which companies do this?


Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
A high-end audio manufacturer suggesting that test measurements are not the full story to express the whole of human hearing isn't "whining" or even minimizing the importance of measurable tests. It's simply putting measureable results into perspective and acknowledging that such measurements have limits. Once you've double-blind auditioned two components that "measure the same" and heard distinct differences between them, it's not so hard to undrestand.

Which measurements have limits?


Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
BTW, the irony of what won me over to replace my speaker wire with higher-end stuff was a double-blind test! I had heard the difference, which sounded pretty dramatic to my ear (tighter bass and much cleaner, airier highs) with a higher-end Monstor cable, but I didn't have the luxury of doing an A/B double blind test on myself. So I didn't tell my roommate that I had changed anything in the system. "


I have no doubt that many high end companies use all kinds of testing--possibly even quite a few double blind tests.

But this isn't the big issue for consumers. None of the major (or for that cae minor) high end audio magazines write reviews using double blind tests. Hence, most "professional" reviewere use a combination of preconceived notions and a mish-mash of amplifiers, speakers, cd players, pre-amplifiers, turntables, cartridges, etc. making it nigh impossible to distinguish what piece of equipment is causing what they might consider being an audio difference.

Obviously some reviewers are far better at seeing the flowers from the weeds and have a somewhat reasonable guess at what effects certain components might be contributing to the overall music being listened to. This is quite often easier with the subjective process of speaker listening, as long as the reviewer is using a compatible amplifier.

I've listened to a number of Devore loudspeakers, from the 3XL's, hte Gibbon 8's, the Gibbon Super 8's, the Gibbon 9's ($6,500/pair), and the current pinacle of their line--the Silverback "Gorilla" Reference (about $15,000/pair). One thing they have in common at their not inconsiderable price ranges (but not by well-healed audiophiles) is their overall excellent performance that can easily be discerned by the non-hearing damaged. Other speakers that are also excellent, but somewhat different in sound, aren the Joseph Audio line of speakers, Anthony Gallo speakers--particularly the older Reference 3.1's at about $3,000/pair which were a steal when they were available, the new Gallo Strada's with their bass module, the Gallo Nucleaus Reference A/V speakers, and the new Gallo very updated (in both sound and price) Reference 3.5's at $6,000/pair. The very incredible full-range, self-powered, and active crossovered, diplanar (open-backed) Linkwitz Orion speakers. These are very difficult speakers to send back after living with them. Given the space required to get ttheir best performance (3-5 feet from the front wall and a few feet from side walls) obne will be amazed by the enormous soundstage and a neverending sweetspot, not to mention just amazingly great performance. Since Siegfried Linkwitz is one of the great minds in the audio field, just visiting his incredbly informative site--Linkwitzlab.com--is a must visit for anyone serious about speaker design and music listening.

Of course there are numerous other excellent speakers, such as Magneplanar 3.6's and some of theirother models, along with the online speaker manufacturer of the excellent omnidirectional Walsh speakers--ohmspeakers.com--.

I have omitted numerous other excellent speaker manufacturers, but I just wanted to highlight some that came readily to mind and that I would be deleriously happy to own.

Greg
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Old 03-27-2010   #119
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Default Re: High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differences?

The answer to your question about why high end processors sound better is simple. They have better analog circuitry. There is no objective data just sit down and listen. Your ears are the best judge of sound quality. If yo can't hear a difference don't waste your money. Everyone seems to forget that every processor has that pesky analog half of the equation and cheap processors and receiver do a definite disservice to this half of the sound signal. On the digital side better processing offers better steering logic and more features especially compared to real cheap receivers. In the end trust your ears, they will rarly let you down.
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