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Old 12-23-2009   #61
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Default Re: High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differences?

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Originally Posted by graniterocks View Post
If you are going to post something along the lines of the high end having a better design or using better parts could you please post some information to clarify those statements.

I have even had a stand alone receiver beat the crap out of some pretty expensive gear.
So would you care to share what receiver you are talking about????
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Old 12-23-2009   #62
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Default Re: High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differences?

If the troll was serious he wouldn'T use DBT as an argument.

DBT have proved that it was possible to make someone buy lesser and in the long run unsatisfied audio component just because with fast switching people are unable to hear the difference.

I know have been fooled in the past. I was a DBT believer until It proved that my nakamichi cassette deck was no different than a cheap 99$ no name cassette deck. I sold my nak and bought that cheap cassette deck ( It was something like Juliette or Candle).

Being less and less satisfied with that new deck. I ask my brother to lend me his own nak for 2 weeks. ( He was going on vacation).
So I took time to listen cafefully to both. Than I ask My girlfriend to put tapes in one of them. I listened for many hours and I took notes. Latter on, she played the other tape deck. Again I listened for many hours taking notes.

Finally, I compared my notes. One was clearly better than the other. It was my brother's Nak ( the same that I used to have before being fooled buy double blind tests.)


p.s. I was not just taking notes, I was listening to music.
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Old 12-24-2009   #63
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Default Re: High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differences?

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Originally Posted by Daniel-a View Post
If the troll was serious he wouldn'T use DBT as an argument.

DBT have proved that it was possible to make someone buy lesser and in the long run unsatisfied audio component just because with fast switching people are unable to hear the difference.

I know have been fooled in the past. I was a DBT believer until It proved that my nakamichi cassette deck was no different than a cheap 99$ no name cassette deck. I sold my nak and bought that cheap cassette deck ( It was something like Juliette or Candle).

Being less and less satisfied with that new deck. I ask my brother to lend me his own nak for 2 weeks. ( He was going on vacation).
So I took time to listen cafefully to both. Than I ask My girlfriend to put tapes in one of them. I listened for many hours and I took notes. Latter on, she played the other tape deck. Again I listened for many hours taking notes.

Finally, I compared my notes. One was clearly better than the other. It was my brother's Nak ( the same that I used to have before being fooled buy double blind tests.)
p.s. I was not just taking notes, I was listening to music.

How could a double blind test "prove" a $99.00 cassette was no different than your Nakamichi if you actually did listen to both, carefully? If you couldn't hear the difference in a DBT, then how could you hear the difference when you listened to one, then listened to the other? How could you fool yourself with a carefully conducted DBT? Seems very irrational.
I have a hunch that if you did the double blind test over again, and really conducted it properly and listened carefully, that there would be a noticeable difference, and not only that, but you could pick out the better unit.
Double blind testing has been used for many years, successfully, as a method of eliminating bias in testing. Your claim that DBT, in your DBT, assuming it was really a DBT, "fooled" your ears and your mind into believing there was no diference in the cassette players. I have listened to a lot of cassette players, a few in double blind tests, and each one did sound a bit different. Almost always the high end one sounded better than the low priced ones, but middle priced ones were much harder to pick out. The very cheap ones were obviously inferior, usually in the high end, when I used recordings of triangles for testing. This was a long time ago, and I do recall the Nakamichi as being a favorite.
My personal opinion is that you did hot conduct a proper and careful double blind test, and also that you want to believe that you were fooled by the test. I believe there is an old saying that one of the easiest people to fool is oneself.
I recall a double blind test done on vodka by several people, where a snooty guy said he would drink nothing but "Grey Goose", very expensive, vodka. He was quite sure of his choices. But when the test results were shown, he had placed "Grey Goose" at the bottom of his list. Expense of a product has a significant powers of suggestion.
Dave Ladely
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Old 12-24-2009   #64
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Default Re: High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differences?

Dave, who am I to argue with a believer?

My experience made me an unbeliever. I now prefer to trust my own ears.

I don't need DBT and I don't believe in them anymore.

Trusting my ears, I found that...

I like some Simaudio amp, but there are other Simaudio that I don't.

Same thing with Bryston.

I liked Conrad Johnson premier component but the others left me cold.

I never found a Mark Levinson that I didn't llike.

My Oracle is better than all the turntable that I used to have, no contest.
Its sound could be caompared to Linn Sondek. However, the Oracle is much more beautiful

I like most Martin Logan Loudspeakers but there are some that I wouldn't like to have.

My clearaudio is better than my former grado that was close to my former grace f9e.

I used to have a Magnum Dynalab ft-101A. I never listened to another tuner able to produce such lovely sound.

Are they the best product out there?
I don't think so. If I want something better, I will again trust my own ears, not the saleman, not the reviewer, not even the believer. I know better than to believe in anything.

Last edited by Daniel-a; 01-08-2010 at 05:17 PM..
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Old 01-08-2010   #65
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Default Re: High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differences?

Typical high end discussion, do you as a high end believer have any objective information that would back up claims about audio quality?
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Old 01-08-2010   #66
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Smile Re: High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differences?

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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Typical high end discussion, do you as a high end believer have any objective information that would back up claims about audio quality?
I don't see myself as a "high end believer" and never did. I do have a lot more confidence in double blind tests when appropriate and when done properly. Such as with cables and speaker wires. I think that DBTs have proven themselves since the Enlightenment triumphed over the Dark Ages proliferation of purely subjective thinking. I am not much of a "believer" anyway. That implies an ompinion derived from little or no evidence, no proof, but defended vigorously due mostly insecurities

However, cartidges, preamps, amps, and speakers are pretty much limited to A-B comparisons, and even that is difficult since few, if any, audio video stores carry enough btands to be able to audition equipment side by side to compare one with another.
Not only that, but some people do like the equipment to color the entire sound, such as "warm" vs "cold" sounding equipment vs. trying to choose as neutral a sound as possible, and even that is subjective.

I am not a person who is elitist about brands or prices. for exampley, I buy monoprice and Blue Jeans cables (BJ as they will provide custom lengths and colors at no extra charge and are excellent quality at a non elitist price). Also, neiter use names of Greek gods, etc. to up the ante on price and try to allude to almost spiritual sound quaalities.

I believe a lot of equipment is over priced for what you get, and, too often, a piece of equipment may cost far more than another with less quailty sound.

Without A-B comparitons, however, the choice is very likely to be purely subjective, like irrational love.
cheers
Dave Ladely
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