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Old 11-19-2009   #55
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Exclamation Re: High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differences?

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Originally Posted by Chris Gossard View Post
Steve -
I'm confused about why you started this thread. Looking at your posts on the PS Audio forum, you posted the following about the PerfectWave Transport and PerfectWave DAC versus other products:
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Steven Bruzonsky

03 October 2009 09:02 PM [ Report ] [ Ignore ] [ # 25 ]
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AVS is AVS and I’m a big guy that can take their crap at times. HA!

The verdict is in!!!@@@

#1 PS Audio PWT and PWD to Six Shooter

VS

#2 PS Audio PWT to Theta CB3 using latter’s Extreme DACs

I’ve played around a bit with cables, accessories, etc. My configuration now is on the bottom a Symposium Ultra platform, then a set of three Symposium rectangular “cubes” (I tried Symposium Rollerblocks, but didn’t like them primarily because the components on top rolled some and weren’t stable enough), then the PWT, then on top of the PWT the PWD (with its rubber feet screwed off, the PWD fits on top of the PWD like they were one component, as that is how they are designed), then a 3/8 thick Symposium Svelte Shelf, then on top of the shelf a Bright Star Little Rock weight. I settled on 1M Granite Audio balanced interconnects from PWD to Six Shooter preamp. 2M Cardas Neutral Reference balanced digital cable from PWT to CB3. Granite Audio power cords plugged into PS Audio Premier Power Plant not using the Multiwave feature (like the regular sine wave better musically in general). The I2S HDMI cable between the PWT and PWD is a Blue Jeans Cable 1 foot Belden Series F-2 (in a few week’s PS Audio’s silver HDMI 1M cable will arrive and I will try it out).
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so on your earlier comments on this forum, you've said that cables differences are subjective and, I believe, discounted another person's comments that they heard a difference, yet on the PS Audio site you are talking about switching out cables and hearing a difference.

As quoted above, you say that a $400 receiver is going decode DD/DTS the same as a Theta (and implying that they sound the same), yet you own a Theta CB-3 and Six Shooter which, depending on the configuration can cost almost $30K. So I guess you're saying that you like paying a lot for "audio jewelry" if it all sounds the same?

You've repeatedly said that all electronics sound the same and DBT would prove it, yet looking at the things you've done with your PWD versus the Theta DACs, it appears that you believe otherwise.

You also told me on the PS Audio discussion forum that I would hear a difference if I bought a 2-channel preamp instead of listening to my Onkyo Pro PR-SC886P and you used your use of the Theta Six Shooter as an example (good advice here, I did! and I also improved the sound by getting a PWD myself instead of using the 886P's DACs).

I can't tell if you're truly trying to have a spirited discussion by starting this thread or you were trolling...at any rate, your comments on this thread versus the one at PS Audio seem very contradictory.

ChrisG
Seattle, WA
I guess I am missing something here. If someone says certain conclusions regardin alleged cable differences are based on subjective opinions, then discounts a subjective opinion, that is consistent. Had he said that, then discounted an objective opinion, that is, an opinion based, say, on the results of genuine rigorous double blind testing, then that would be inconsistent. Not only that, it would appear very biased and even defensive of the subjectivity that is usually the cause of biased conclusions.
Subjectivity is best relegated to the realms of taste, where, as a Greek wise man once said, "Regarding taste, there is no argument". But subjectivity has been proven to be notoriously unreliable in matters of truth and fact, being very dependent on perception and the power of suggestion, whether by others or by oneself. Subjectivity was the prevailing way of thinking during the Dark Ages, and it is still alive and well, though greatly diminished after the Age of Enlightenment, when the process of obtaining objectivity gained credibility. Subjectivity caused almost everyone to believe that the sun revolved around the earth, and this belief persisted until the objective observations of Copernicus and Galileo, who suffered greatly for their threats to the false security of subjectivity. Nowadays, the supporters of subjectivity are on the defensive and have been for a few centuries, but the thinking persists, since it requires no rigorous experimentation or double blind testing and, from the perception of the observer, lacking such testing, their beliefs are correct. Its only when these same observers undergo double blind testing that they usually find they managed to mislead themselves. This ability of people to con themselves has also been amply demonstrated in experiments using placebos, for example, as evidenced by the term "placebo effect". The power of suggestion is difficult to underestimate, and subjective thinking has comforting aspects, whether the conclusion is correct or not. Conclusions derived from subjective thinking are impossible to disprove by relying on more subjective thinking.
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Old 11-20-2009   #56
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Default Re: High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differences?

Not to mention that regardless of how one deems to best evaluate the audible differences (double blind tests etc.), to propose that there should be no difference at all between two pieces of gear because "a $400 receiver is going to decode DD/DTS the exact same way a $30,000 theta will." is utterly misguided, as "decoding" is only one of about 1000 ways that sound can be affected.

Even if two processors were fed a bit-for-bit identical PCM signal where no "decoding" was involved at all, there are a host of reasons why the final sound fed to the amp stage could be audibly different. The most obvious step would be d/a conversion, on top of which one would add all of the "usual" analog issues that affect traditional analog gear.

Now, whether or not two particular pieces of gear sound different from each other or not is a matter for proper evaluation. But the statement that supposes that it wouldn't be possible for them to sound different is uneducated, unscientific, and unfounded.

Last edited by DaViD Boulet; 11-20-2009 at 06:10 AM..
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Old 11-20-2009   #57
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Exclamation Re: High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differences?

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Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post
Not to mention that regardless of how one deems to best evaluate the audible differences (double blind tests etc.), to propose that there should be no difference at all between two pieces of gear because "a $400 receiver is going to decode DD/DTS the exact same way a $30,000 theta will." is utterly misguided, as "decoding" is only one of about 1000 ways that sound can be affected.

Even if two processors were fed a bit-for-bit identical PCM signal where no "decoding" was involved at all, there are a host of reasons why the final sound fed to the amp stage could be audibly different. The most obvious step would be d/a conversion, on top of which one would add all of the "usual" analog issues that affect traditional analog gear.

Now, whether or not two particular pieces of gear sound different from each other or not is a matter for proper evaluation. But the statement that supposes that it wouldn't be possible for them to sound different is uneducated, unscientific, and unfounded.
Actually, I was not addressing processors, I was referring only to that part of the discussion where he mentions cables and says there in an inconsistency regarding subjectivity.
I regarding processors. amplifiers, speakers, there is no way to do double blind testing on that equipment because they are complex pieces of equipment with different designs and different parts. Even two identical speakers could possibly sound a bit different. All of this equipment can be tested in various ways, with the goal of perfect reproduction of sound, and some will do better than others in that regard.
And as far as preferences go, the differences can, to some extent, be a matter of taste. That is why some people prefer a "warm" sound, though I believe that equipment designed to replicate music should not impose any coloration whatsoever, as a goal, even if "pleasant" to some ears.
Sorry for any misunderstanding.
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Old 11-24-2009   #58
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Default Re: High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differences?

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Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post
Not to mention that regardless of how one deems to best evaluate the audible differences (double blind tests etc.), to propose that there should be no difference at all between two pieces of gear because "a $400 receiver is going to decode DD/DTS the exact same way a $30,000 theta will." is utterly misguided, as "decoding" is only one of about 1000 ways that sound can be affected.

Even if two processors were fed a bit-for-bit identical PCM signal where no "decoding" was involved at all, there are a host of reasons why the final sound fed to the amp stage could be audibly different. The most obvious step would be d/a conversion, on top of which one would add all of the "usual" analog issues that affect traditional analog gear.

Now, whether or not two particular pieces of gear sound different from each other or not is a matter for proper evaluation. But the statement that supposes that it wouldn't be possible for them to sound different is uneducated, unscientific, and unfounded.
Funny how people still disagree with DBT's, but I have shown that high end gear does not use better DAC's or a better analog pre amp.
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Old 11-25-2009   #59
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Default Re: High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differences?

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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
Funny how people still disagree with DBT's, but I have shown that high end gear does not use better DAC's or a better analog pre amp.
Hey Steve,

I didn't say that high-end gear necessarily sounds better. I only suggested a few reasons why two pieces of gear (any two) can sound *different*.

I've heard affordable gear sound better than top-priced gear plenty of times. I've also heard high-end gear that's worth it's weight in gold. My solution? I use my ears and then buy the best bang for the buck that I can afford.
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Old 12-04-2009   #60
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Default Re: High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differences?

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Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post
Hey Steve,

I didn't say that high-end gear necessarily sounds better. I only suggested a few reasons why two pieces of gear (any two) can sound *different*.

I've heard affordable gear sound better than top-priced gear plenty of times. I've also heard high-end gear that's worth it's weight in gold. My solution? I use my ears and then buy the best bang for the buck that I can afford.
That is a subjective approach, if you were really serious you would use a DBT to see what does sound better.
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