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Old 08-16-2008   #85
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Default Re: High end pre/pro's. Are they worth it???

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Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post
Also, much of the super high end stuff was simply not of interest to me because of lack of essential features, outrageous cost, proprietary architecture, etc. ... Meanwhile, I am enjoying the very best sound I have ever heard anywhere.
So after excluding all the high-end gear, Integra is the best sound you've heard. That's fair. Now we understand what you're saying. Hard to disagree given the good reviews of the Integra here and elsewhere.
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Old 08-16-2008   #86
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Default Re: High end pre/pro's. Are they worth it???

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Originally Posted by Rooney View Post
Fitz (& all),
...

I like Anthem's concept of having a good quality video scaler in the SSP. Now if we could make that a full scale video processor with color management, I'd have my ideal new SSP!

Regards
If video performance is really that important to you (it's not to me), you are probably going to get the best video by using an external scaler. Trying to find a pre/pro with the best video performance and audio performance and features combined is going to be well-nigh impossible. Anthem may be as close as you can come, but I personally would not want anything without HDMI 1.3 to avoid potential obsolescence. As Kenny has already explained, 1.3 is not absolutely essential now, but it might be in the future. Then again, it might never be. I think the odds favor that it will be important eventually.

Also, if you want to play SACD's with their native DSD format going to the pre/pro via HDMI (I do), you need at least HDMI 1.2. HDMI 1.3 has higher bandwidth than earlier versions, and it allows the 7.1 lossless Blu-Ray codecs to be sent to the pre/pro in bitstream format, rather than requiring conversion of these formats to PCM in the player. I think this is a good idea, since I expect the pre/pro to do a better bitstream-to-PCM conversion than the player, unless the player is very expensive. Less expensive, basic BR players only output bitstream via HDMI 1.3, not PCM.

I myself am totally satisfied with the REON video processing in my Integra DTC 9.8. I think most pre/pros do no processing of Blu-Ray, just switching/repeating. The video processing is just for less than 1080p sources, DVD and TV, mostly.
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Old 08-16-2008   #87
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Default Re: High end pre/pro's. Are they worth it???

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Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post
If video performance is really that important to you (it's not to me), you are probably going to get the best video by using an external scaler. Trying to find a pre/pro with the best video performance and audio performance and features combined is going to be well-nigh impossible. Anthem may be as close as you can come, but I personally would not want anything without HDMI 1.3 to avoid potential obsolescence. As Kenny has already explained, 1.3 is not absolutely essential now, but it might be in the future. Then again, it might never be. I think the odds favor that it will be important eventually.

Also, if you want to play SACD's with their native DSD format going to the pre/pro via HDMI (I do), you need at least HDMI 1.2. HDMI 1.3 has higher bandwidth than earlier versions, and it allows the 7.1 lossless Blu-Ray codecs to be sent to the pre/pro in bitstream format, rather than requiring conversion of these formats to PCM in the player. I think this is a good idea, since I expect the pre/pro to do a better bitstream-to-PCM conversion than the player, unless the player is very expensive. Less expensive, basic BR players only output bitstream via HDMI 1.3, not PCM.

I myself am totally satisfied with the REON video processing in my Integra DTC 9.8. I think most pre/pros do no processing of Blu-Ray, just switching/repeating. The video processing is just for less than 1080p sources, DVD and TV, mostly.
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Old 08-17-2008   #88
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Default Re: High end pre/pro's. Are they worth it???

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Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post
If video performance is really that important to you (it's not to me), you are probably going to get the best video by using an external scaler. Trying to find a pre/pro with the best video performance and audio performance and features combined is going to be well-nigh impossible. Anthem may be as close as you can come, but I personally would not want anything without HDMI 1.3 to avoid potential obsolescence. As Kenny has already explained, 1.3 is not absolutely essential now, but it might be in the future. Then again, it might never be. I think the odds favor that it will be important eventually.

Also, if you want to play SACD's with their native DSD format going to the pre/pro via HDMI (I do), you need at least HDMI 1.2. HDMI 1.3 has higher bandwidth than earlier versions, and it allows the 7.1 lossless Blu-Ray codecs to be sent to the pre/pro in bitstream format, rather than requiring conversion of these formats to PCM in the player. I think this is a good idea, since I expect the pre/pro to do a better bitstream-to-PCM conversion than the player, unless the player is very expensive. Less expensive, basic BR players only output bitstream via HDMI 1.3, not PCM.

I myself am totally satisfied with the REON video processing in my Integra DTC 9.8. I think most pre/pros do no processing of Blu-Ray, just switching/repeating. The video processing is just for less than 1080p sources, DVD and TV, mostly.
Fitz,
Though I agree with you that video processing is just for non blu ray sources, at least in my application watching TV and DVD still constitute about 1/2 to 2/3 of daily viewing. So in my setup, 1080i/720p scaling and deinterlacing are important. Also, many projectors would benefit from a color management setup. Your statement that I would get the best performance from an external VP is right on the money, but there is one significant hurdle - how do you connect your HDMI sources to 2 devices (the SSP and the VP)? Option number one is connect all sources to the VP so that each (non BR) source can be set up independently in terms of color management (rec 601 vs. 709), deinterlacing, scaling, and frame rate. The HDMI output then would run to one of the inputs on the SSP. Assuming the VP is also 1.3, the new codecs are sent to the SSP for conversion to multichannel PCM and processing. In this setup, only one input of the SSP is used. None of the scaling or other features are utilized. I feel this is a terrible waste and that's the reason it makes sense to me to combine all these functions in one box.
regards.
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Old 08-18-2008   #89
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Talking Re: High end pre/pro's. Are they worth it???

No one needs video processing for Blu Ray? 1080p

As for DVD the new Oppo DV-983H smokes them all so personally I don't need video processing in my AV/Pre Pro I NEED OUTSTANDING SOUND that is all I care about if it does just that I am happy.

With HDMi 1.3 that should take care of the needs for the next ten years!! How better can you get than true master tapes = to the original?

The problem with having video processing in a pre/pro is that it is more likely to change than sound advances.

Dolby Digital was first used for cinema sound in 1992. It took 15 years to get Dolby True HD. DTS introduced in 1993 its DTS sound with the release of Steven Spielberg’s blockbuster Jurassic Park and in 2006 DTS demonstrates DTS-HD Master Audio at Cedia which is thirteen years later. I prove my point!

http://www.dolby.com/about/who_we_are/history_5.html

http://www.dts.com/Corporate/About_Us/Milestones.aspx

Last edited by wes; 08-18-2008 at 10:46 AM..
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Old 08-18-2008   #90
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Default Re: High end pre/pro's. Are they worth it???

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Originally Posted by wes View Post
No one needs video processing for Blu Ray? 1080p

As for DVD the new Oppo DV-983H smokes them all so personally I don't need video processing in my AV/Pre Pro I NEED OUTSTANDING SOUND that is all I care about if it does just that I am happy.

With HDMi 1.3 that should take care of the needs for the next ten years!! How better can you get than true master tapes = to the original?

The problem with having video processing in a pre/pro is that it is more likely to change than sound advances.

Dolby Digital was first used for cinema sound in 1992. It took 15 years to get Dolby True HD. DTS introduced in 1993 its DTS sound with the release of Steven Spielberg’s blockbuster Jurassic Park and in 2006 DTS demonstrates DTS-HD Master Audio at Cedia which is thirteen years later. I prove my point!

http://www.dolby.com/about/who_we_are/history_5.html

http://www.dts.com/Corporate/About_Us/Milestones.aspx
Yes, but the pace of technology change has been much quicker than it was then. Product life cycles have been shorter. I really do not expect significantly higher resolution on displays for awhile. Probably only really big screen projectors could discern it. I doubt if I could see it on my 60" display.

Nor, do I expect new 7.1 codecs beyond what BR does now. The market needs time to assimilate what is already out, and how much better could it be? The industry is still struggling, especially the hi-hi enders, to get all this stuff under control. I wonder what proportion of home theaters actually have 7.1 channels at the moment.

I do expect we will see deep color. When? Who knows? There will probably be some animated stuff that uses it first. Then, the studios will phase it in on real movies.

I expect HDMI 1.3 to be with us for some time, because it's not even fully implemented in movie releases yet. There does not seem to be a need to go beyond it unless we need higher resolution/bandwidth for video or audio. There is nothing on the horizon, yet.
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