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Plasma and LCD HDTV Talk about flat HDTVs here.

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Old 03-01-2008   #13
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Default Re: Which 1080P for sports?

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Originally Posted by xorbitman View Post
Yes I would agree with you that the Samsungs have amazing color accuracy and that's what they are building their reputation on at the moment. However in sizes above 37" and especially 50", plasma is hands down the way to go. I've seen some remarkable 50" plasmas on sale this week-end for around $1,200 to $1,400. No 50" LCD will ever compete with that price. Therefore the best bang for the buck is PLASMA...Yes the new 50" LCD with the LED is amazing but so are the new 50" Plasmas for 1/2 the price and BETTER picture quality IMO.
Right but we aren't talking about money, but which for sports. Also the new 50" plasmas can't touch the Sammy. Only the Kuros can. PQ is all about color accuracy and contrast ratio first and foremost. Since the Sammy has the best CA of any set being manufactured today, and 3rd best contrast.... do the math.
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Old 03-01-2008   #14
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Default Re: Which 1080P for sports?

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Originally Posted by Lotus View Post
Right but we aren't talking about money, but which for sports. Also the new 50" plasmas can't touch the Sammy. Only the Kuros can. PQ is all about color accuracy and contrast ratio first and foremost. Since the Sammy has the best CA of any set being manufactured today, and 3rd best contrast.... do the math.
Wrong wrong wrong....sports are better viewed on a plasma:

I'm doing the math! Are YOU doing the math? ....for less than the Samsung you can get the new Panasonic Viera and it's every bit as good as the Kuro. Everyone in the business will tell you that you can't beat a Plasma when it comes to 50" & + for sports....Plasmas are way faster than LCD and I will tell you why:

1. The only technology that supports individually addressable pixels is the OLED....and OLED's do not require back lighting therefore you get perfect blacks since you do not have to lower the power of the LCD's and turn off the back lighting to get blacks or turn down the power on the plasma panel. The OLEDS will eventually be cheaper to manufacture than LCD or Plasma since there will be less cabinet, less electronics since there is no backlighting required....Until this technology is readily available...Plasma panels in the 50" and above will remain superior to LCD technology because:

2. Plasma panels handle blacks and contract far more simply and effectively than LCD panels...you need to turn LCD panels off to produce blacks and the effect of turning them off and on even at 120 hz will produce a blur in the larger panels...
While the "response time" of LCD TVs has markedly improved in the last couple of years, they still suffer from a slight "trailer" effect, where the individual pixels are just slightly out of step with the image on the screen. During fast moving sports scenes, the most discerning eyes can detect this slight motion response lag.

3. Plasmas also have better viewing angles than LCD's.

4. Plasma flat screen technology consists of hundreds of thousands of individual pixel cells, which allow electric pulses (stemming from electrodes) to excite rare natural gases-usually xenon and neon-causing them to glow and produce light. This light illuminates the proper balance of red, green, or blue phosphors contained in each cell to display the proper color sequence from the light. Each pixel cell is essentially an individual microscopic florescent light bulb, receiving instruction from software contained on the rear electrostatic silicon board. Look very closely at a plasma TV and you can actually see the individual pixel cell coloration of red, green, and blue bars. You can also see the black ribs which separate each.

Whether spread across a flat-panel screen or placed in the heart of a projector, all LCD displays come from the same technological background. A matrix of thin-film transistors (TFTs) supplies voltage to liquid-crystal-filled cells sandwiched between two sheets of glass. When hit with an electrical charge, the crystals untwist to an exact degree to filter white light generated by a lamp behind the screen (for flat-panel TVs) or one projecting through a small LCD chip (for projection TVs). LCD monitors reproduce colors through a process of subtraction: They block out particular color wavelengths from the spectrum of white light until they're left with just the right color. And, it's the intensity of light permitted to pass through this liquid-crystal matrix that enables LCD televisions to display images chock-full of colors-or gradations of them.

As the above advantages show, plasma technology has the better picture quality in normal to low room lighting conditions and are better in 4 out of 5 picture quality categories. Plasma technology will almost without exception triumph during night time viewing. LCD televisions are great for sunroom/breakfast room type environments. Also, LCD monitors are generally better for public display such as airport signage and retail store signage due to the bright room light environment.

5. LCD manufacturers have made great improvements in black levels and in many cases have managed to match the contrast ratio of plasma displays. However, Plasma TVs still maintain a clear advantage in this category due to fading blacks when viewing LCDs from off axis. In a dark room environment the user will notice the hazy effect present in blacks on LCD TVs. For scenes with a lot of dark and light images shown simultaneously - as with content originating from DVDs, video games, and NTSC TV signals - plasma TVs still consistently outperform LCDs.

6. Due to a deeper pixel cell structure plasma technology again triumphs in depth perception. With an incoming HD signal plasma looks more three dimensional than LCD TVs. LCDs rely more on the effects of lighting for depth characterization and images at times can appear flatter.

7. When comparing the 6,500-K spec for color temperature, plasmas are almost always flatter accross the spectrum and much more stable than LCD's which typically tend to vary by color even after calibration.

I agree that Samsung has dramatically raised the bar for LCD TV performance, but the technology still has further to go.

However if I was spending my money on a TV that's as expensive as a 50" LCD by I would get the plasma. In 7 out of 8 categories it is superior to LCD. LCD gets an 8/10 and plasma gets 9.5/10.

That's it end of discussion....period.

Thank you!
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Old 03-01-2008   #15
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Default Re: Which 1080P for sports?

xorbitman, i agree, but chill dude.

and the LED backlit LCDs from Samsung have HORRIBLE angle viewing. every reviewer comments on this. until that is fixed, the best lcd imo is the samsung 71 series... which are so close to the panasonic plasma in both PQ,Contrast,Blacks etc, i'd say go with the sammy 71 if you have LOTS of light, go with the panny if you have control over the lighting and go with the pioneer kuro if money is no problem.

best: pioneer kuro
2nd and cheaper: panasonic 77's
3rd and best for bright rooms: samsung 71's

everything else is so close, but not quite there.
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Old 03-02-2008   #16
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Default Re: Which 1080P for sports?

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Originally Posted by xorbitman View Post
Wrong wrong wrong....sports are better viewed on a plasma:

I'm doing the math! Are YOU doing the math? ....for less than the Samsung you can get the new Panasonic Viera and it's every bit as good as the Kuro.
No. The Panasonic doesn't test out as well as the Kuro in contrast ratio tests or color accuracy tests. That isn't every bit as good as the Kuro. This conversation isn't about money and what is the best "deal," and you don't want to get into that arguement because the best PQ per dollar spent will point you to a Vizio. Once you start spending more money than a Vizio you aren't getting drastically better PQ (but you will get better PQ) until you start spending absurd money like the Sammy and Kuro units.

Quote:
Everyone in the business will tell you that you can't beat a Plasma when it comes to 50" & + for sports....Plasmas are way faster than LCD and I will tell you why
Lecturing someone who helped design the TV technology is like telling Mozart what a piano is. I have a far better understanding of the TVs than you think. This isn't a debate on whether Plasma is superior to LCD (it is) but about specific TV for sports based on the OP not wanting to deal with "blur," etc. My answer is the Sammy LCD LED flatpanel 81 series. It doesn't suffer from "blur," poor color accuracy, bad contrast, etc.

Also most experts I know LOVE the new Samsung tv. To quote CNET "For anyone sitting in the sweet spot in front of the set, watching in a dark room, it delivers better overall picture quality--namely black levels and color accuracy--than any HDTV we've tested so far. "

To quote AVREV "While I appreciate the versatility that LCD brings to the table when it comes to everyday TV viewing, it has never been my first choice for home theater use, so it was with great interest that I sat down with Samsungís 46-inch, 1080p LN-T4681F to see if the LED approach would finally change my mind."

Which is a sentiment I totally 100% shared (with the exception of the Qualia 005s of the past).

AVREV again "As I said at the start, Iíve reviewed a lot of LCDs over the past few years, and the LN-T4681F is easily my favorite. Iíd go so far as to call it the best-looking LCD Iíve seen to date. It delivers that bright, detailed, grabbing image weíve come to expect from LCD in a well-lit room, yet itís up to the challenge of a creating a rich, well-saturated image in a darkened theater space. High-definition content can look gorgeous, and the TV doesnít stumble when asked to handle standard definition. All in all, the LN-T4681F is worth the price premium in terms of performance, versatility, aesthetics and features."

Quote:
As the above advantages show, plasma technology has the better picture quality in normal to low room lighting conditions and are better in 4 out of 5 picture quality categories. Plasma technology will almost without exception triumph during night time viewing.
I'm not talking about TECHNOLOGY. This isn't an arguement of Plasma vs LCD. It's the Sammy LED LCD flat panel I'm talking about not 99% of the LCD tech that is out there that uses CCFL. No TV on the market measures better black. That isn't an opinion that's a fact. So it doesn't matter if normal plasma technology usually does better, in this case it doesn't and no TV on the market does anything like it. Throw in the best color accuracy over any unit currently for sale in any TV category and you have an amazing combination.

Quote:
I agree that Samsung has dramatically raised the bar for LCD TV performance, but the technology still has further to go.
I don't think they can. They may make them cheaper but they will be hard pressed to improve the sets. They push the tech boundaries that LCD is limited to. There is no way for them to fix the extremely slight contrast issues the units have. The original LED LCD the Qualia 005s were sweet, but this is an improvement on the problems that unit suffered from (and it suffered from little). The biggest problem with the set was fixed with a firmware upgrade.

Quote:
However if I was spending my money on a TV that's as expensive as a 50" LCD by I would get the plasma. In 7 out of 8 categories it is superior to LCD. LCD gets an 8/10 and plasma gets 9.5/10.
I'm not talking about a LCD. I'm talking about a specific TV. LED works much faster than conventional LCD sets, so "blur," isn't a problem at least not with the TVs with the firmware update (and that update is in all TVs manufactured since October which is likely what you'd get today).

The only problem I know this set has is wide viewing angles and a too shiny screen. However if you're sitting in front of it, for the money it provides the best picture possible for Sports, movies, and games. That and a very, very, very slight blooming of whites next to complete blacks. The shiny screen may be a problem in well lit rooms too.

You can get very slightly better contrast ratio tested units (the high mid grays of the unit are a little off) and then it's a matter of opinion you trade better contrast for better colors. To do so you spend more for the Kuro. IMHO after living with both in my house I chose the Sammy.

If I was to pick a TV for my house at around 50 inches I'd go with the Sammy LED LCD sets and invest the money saved from the Kuro in wiring. In fact as mentioned I already made that choice. The Kuro tested better in contrast ratios (but not for better overall blacks) and didn't suffer for slight blooming or halo effects which both happen rarely after the firmware update.

To battle your hyperbole, just about every expert worth a damn has said the new Sammy 81s (after the firmware update) are the best TV PQ you can buy if you're sitting in the sweet spot and don't have a light to interfere with the shiny screen and would label it the best TV out if not for the viewing angle and shiny screen.

So if you have a controlled environment and sit in front of your TV vs to off to the side dramatically then the Sammy is an excellent choice.

The Sammy is just the best TV out right now for those who have a good room for it and sit in front of their TVs. The blacks are out of this world. Each time I watch something and one half the screen is black I get a kick out of it. It's completely 100% for real black like nothing any TV has ever been able to accomplish. This is because that part of the TV is essentially "off," completely. Add the best color accuracy of any TV currently for sale on the market and you got a hell of a TV. The sets also have the best geometry of any LCD ever sold. It's really a hell of an achievement.

The 81 series shouldn't be clumped into a category with other LCDs. The only LCD that should even be mentioned in the same sentence with it is the Qualia 005s (they were $8k) because they were the only TVs done with LED. CCFL is seriously flawed.
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Old 03-02-2008   #17
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Default Re: Which 1080P for sports?

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Originally Posted by rykerabel View Post
xorbitman, i agree, but chill dude.

and the LED backlit LCDs from Samsung have HORRIBLE angle viewing. every reviewer comments on this. until that is fixed, the best lcd imo is the samsung 71 series... which are so close to the panasonic plasma in both PQ,Contrast,Blacks etc, i'd say go with the sammy 71 if you have LOTS of light, go with the panny if you have control over the lighting and go with the pioneer kuro if money is no problem.

best: pioneer kuro
2nd and cheaper: panasonic 77's
3rd and best for bright rooms: samsung 71's

everything else is so close, but not quite there.
How many people don't sit in front of their TVs? The viewing angle problem is serious if you sit over 6 feet off dead center. How many people do that?

If you're serious about your experience and have a nice dark room the Sammy 81 is untouchable in total PQ imho. The combination of the best blacks, best color accuracy and 3rd best grays beat even the Kuro with the best gray scale ratio TV on the market currently. I lived with both in my house and realized I got a better kick out of the Sammy it was far more three dimensional and the color was seductively amazing.

It's not a TV for people who aren't going to sit in front of it. However you can easily get a family of 6 in front of the TV and benefit from it's amazing PQ. It's not for parties.
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Old 03-02-2008   #18
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Default Re: Which 1080P for sports?

"Also most experts I know LOVE the new Samsung tv.To quote CNET "For anyone sitting in the sweet spot in front of the set, watching in a dark room, it delivers better overall picture quality--namely black levels and color accuracy--than any HDTV we've tested so far. "


I have to laugh.....You are quoting CNET? I base my analysis and my debate on facts and articles written by fellow engineers in "white papers" and Engineer association magazines and other rags like "Widescreen Review? ...and you are quoting CNET?

Then you tell me to chill and then proceed to "bash" me on every point I make with moot arguments? Like: "How many people don't sit in front of their TVs? The viewing angle problem is serious if you sit over 6 feet off dead center. How many people do that?"

How many people watch TV alone? Especially sports....usually you have L shaped seating in a living room unless you are Bill Gates. That means that your guests are probably seating at an angle unless you want to be cozy and put 6 people on a sofa made for 2 or 3.

What did you do? Stay up all night googling every web-site so that you could come up with answers for your precious Sammy? What is it? They paying you or something?

Hey I will be the first to tell you that cutsey footsy Sammy is a good TV...I own a brand new 32" myself....but I can tell you it is no where near as good as a plama....better yet I'll stick my head out even more...I will go ahead and say that the best technology is still the CRT...picture tube...too bad it's so balky.

You make laugh: "That and a very, very, very slight blooming of whites next to complete blacks. The shiny screen may be a problem in well lit rooms too."

You go on to contradict yourself and then you go back to supporting your old argument with no facts to back it up....

I just finished explaining "Technically" why a plasma's technology is superior to an LCD's especially in a "controlled" environment!

And you have NOT tested the new Viera sets from Panasonic or you would know that they are testing every bit as good as all the new Pioneer Kuros except for the Pioneer ELite Pro Plasma....among the best TV's out there....Then there is stuff you will never see like the Fujitsu, Vidikron, B & O, ect....No Sammy will ever touch any of these sets....so you're price is "no object" theory is dead in the water. I am talking the best set for sports along with bang for the buck....you still can not touch the Panasonic...period. And if you think the Sammy is still that good, you have not seen the new LCD sets from SONY and SHARP...as these are better than the "Sammy" now.

And give me a break about this "firmware" garbage...how many people download and install the latest "firmeware" for a TV let alone what it is and entails....the average JOE here doesn't have a clue about that and could not give a hoot either.

I don't even have to go as far as "white" papers....Just read the last review from "Consumers Reports"....most of us "engineers" in the broadcast industry will tell you that their findings are very accurate.

Now before you reply to me again do two things: 1. Go to a small specialty shop or CEDIA installer and view an Pioneer ELITE PRO Plasma, Vidikron, Fujistu, B & O...etc.

2. Go to a broadcast booth and production/post production studio and watch, ask questions and learn ....then come back here and reply to me....don't start quoting me "googled" articles....that's a failure to execute.
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