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HD DVD Software & Hardware Here is a place to post on everything and anything HD DVD. Toshiba's dead format lives on here.

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Old 02-06-2008   #25
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Default Re: How many DVD consumers purchase HD DVD by mistake?

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Originally Posted by kennyt View Post
Lotus,

I am really surprised to hear you say this!

In my modest bedroom system the difference between DD and uncompressed PCM is HUGE! Now mind you for most of my testing I was using concert Blu-rays, so it was music I was listening to, but even on film I found the difference to be immediately noticeable.
You do realize many bluray disc DD tracks are done at 448 kbps. Many even from Sony. I think what people are using is 1.5 mbps DD+ compared to a 1.8-3.0 mbps True HD track. Granted Lossless is lossless. The only area that one codec is going to show an advantage over the other is if like on Ghost Rider the True HD track is 20/48 vs. a 16/48 PCM track.
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Old 02-06-2008   #26
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Default Re: How many DVD consumers purchase HD DVD by mistake?

On a side note I have a few hddvd and bluray titles with DTS-HD HRA and that is no slouch either.
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Old 02-06-2008   #27
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Default Re: How many DVD consumers purchase HD DVD by mistake?

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Originally Posted by akbungle View Post
Just think about how much better it would have been in PCM/lossless. Guess we'll just have to wait until the Blu-Ray comes out.


I believe Ice Age 2 was MPEG2 and that was awesome.


I do have a very nice system, nothing that touches Kenny's but nice.

And their it is! SACD and DVD Audio were huge advancements in sound quality but since J6P thought MP3 was good enough it died. Here we have an opportunity with BD to ALWAYS have PCM/Lossless for those that can hear the difference and DD+ or 1.5 DTS core or dolby Pro-logic surround if you prefer for everyone else. It comes back to space and BANDWIDTH.
In reality Transformers could have had a True HD track. All they had to do was get rid of the 1.5 mbps English and 640kbps Spanish and French DD+ tracks. That leaves 2.78 mbps for True HD which we know could have easily be done. For example the Potter True HD tracks run 1.8 mbps.

Coincidently I just watched the bluray of Ice Age 2 a few days ago. We all know animation transfers great to film. While it looks far better than most 18 mbps MPEG-2 titles(which in reality isn't saying much) to me it doesn't hold up to other great titles with AVC encodes like Cars, Routatuille or VC1 encodes like Happy Feet, Polar Express and Shrek 3. I am looking formward to Ice Age 1 though as it hopefully has a AVC encode.
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Old 02-07-2008   #28
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Default Re: How many DVD consumers purchase HD DVD by mistake?

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Coincidently I just watched the bluray of Ice Age 2 a few days ago. We all know animation transfers great to film. While it looks far better than most 18 mbps MPEG-2 titles(which in reality isn't saying much) to me it doesn't hold up to other great titles with AVC encodes like Cars, Routatuille or VC1 encodes like Happy Feet, Polar Express and Shrek 3. I am looking formward to Ice Age 1 though as it hopefully has a AVC encode.
Agreed.

Ice Age 2 is VERY SOFT... even for the MPEG2 CODEC (some MPEG2 titles I have look much sharper). I think it's one of FOX's early "filtered" titles. The same problem can be seen with The Devil Wears Prada. I hope that FOX revisits these early filtered discs at some point in the future. Regardless, let's hope that the AVC Ice Age does it right.
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Old 02-07-2008   #29
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Default Re: How many DVD consumers purchase HD DVD by mistake?

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You do realize many bluray disc DD tracks are done at 448 kbps. Many even from Sony. I think what people are using is 1.5 mbps DD+ compared to a 1.8-3.0 mbps True HD track. Granted Lossless is lossless. The only area that one codec is going to show an advantage over the other is if like on Ghost Rider the True HD track is 20/48 vs. a 16/48 PCM track.
I'm sure that DD+ running at over 1500 kbps sounds very good, and probably much closer to lossless than the legacy DD tracks on many BDs. However, most DD tracks on BD are 640, though a few still show up at 448.

In the case of WB, their "Dolby Digital Plus" soundtracks actually only acheive "standard DD performance" at the 640 data-rate (what has been said by Dressler). Paramount, however, tends to use DD+ to provide high-bit-rate performance.


Quote:
Real world benefit of lossless audio over DD+: None that a consumers ear can notice. It's a tech spec that looks great.
That has not been proven, only suggested by a few sources... most of which had a strong interest in defending DD+ as transparent since it's the best that could be delivered given bandwidth restrictions (ala Transformers). I'm sure DD+ sounds fantastic... so does DTS running at 1500 kbps. However, until my own ears can compare and hear no difference, I'm very distrusting of "experts" who'd like to tell us what we can and can't hear. We still have "experts" telling us we can't hear any improvement over red-book CD 16/44.1 though my own ears hear an astonishing improvement with 24/96.

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I'd prefer all titles had lossless so the arguement would be pointless.
Agreed 100%. That's the "solution" that covers every possible source-signal, listening-environment, and listener accuity.

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Old 02-07-2008   #30
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Default Re: How many DVD consumers purchase HD DVD by mistake?

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I would love to say no one makes this mistake, however I've run into folks at the stores about to do this very thing. I don't blame the format or the discs themselves I blame cheap up-converting DVD players that plaster things like Hi-Def and 1080p all over the box. A lot of consumers buy these $99 dollar players thinking they've entered the hi-def game only to be mistaken when they get home. Two coworkers of mine recently did that then felt the need to gripe at me. In the stores that sell HD DVD and Blu-ray discs at my house do a good job of keeping them separate from the regular DVDs and go so far as to have signage or compatibility charts in the sections themselves to avoid confusion.
Andy, I politely disagree.

The problem is not with the cheap, up-converting $99 players.

The problem lies in what I have written here before: There is no hi-rez DVD interest by Joe and Susie Sixpack, who buy over 90% of all DVD's. Period, end of discussion.

The people who hang out and post here in your forums are all "TAFFY's," - A TAFFY is SRI's (Stanford Research Institutes's acronym for "Technically Affluent Families" and this does NOT mean financial affluence, it means they are the early adapter geeks and nerds who are very comfortable with and in some cases even help develop some of the toys we like. These are the ones people turn to when they need help hooking up their system or fixing their computer. And major marketing companies could give a rat's tutu about them because they are an infinitesimally small customer base that no one makes any money from.

And SRI is used by all the "real" marketing companies and marketing pros out there to segment and ID their customers. Their research is expensive (likely one reason the CE industry, except Sony, does not use them), and my experience has been that the marketing folks working at most consumer electronics companies are what we consultants call 2nd tier or 3rd tier marketers, who would not last a month in the competitive environment of a real marketing company like Proctor & Gamble or Pepsico.

I consult for a very few electronics companies (AND I DO NOT NEED ANY MORE CLIENTS) and I am astounded at the lack of vision and lack of what I consider basic marketing smarts when I encounter some of the "C" level execs I meet at some of my clients.

As an example of what I do, for those of you who import from China, be prepared to have all your orders delayed by at least 2 to 3 weeks, possibly as long as 6 weeks. Why? Well, China is having the coldest winter they have ever experienced in over 100 years, and electricity is in short supply as about 99% of their electric plants are coal fired and the humongous snowstorms they have experienced in the last several weeks have shut down the rail transport of coal from the mines to the power plants. When the power plants start their rotating power cut-offs, plants that produce military goods will be highest on the list, then clothing manufacturers who have big contracts with companies like Wal-Mart will be next. Poor little CE companies manufacturing your products will be at the bottom of the list. And I can assure you none of your Chinese vendors have informed you of this, yet. This is why I only consult for a few, select companies who actually understand what this means and have the expertise and wherewithal to develop contingency plans. For those of you low on the totem pole, what are YOUR contingency plans? And if you have a major product rollout based on getting a new Chinese-manufactured product in your inventory chain in then next few weeks, I would advise you to bend way over and kiss your little (or big) butt goodbye.

It is my observation there are very few marketing visionaries in the CE industry. And when they come along, they are viciously attacked for their business acumen and the financial rewards their company reaps. Case in point: Dr. Amar Bose. I am no fan of his speakers, but NO ONE has done a better job of growing their company into the number one audio company in the world, making their brand a house-hold name, and achieving the highest brand-name recognition among the mass market of consumers who control over 90% of the buying power of the CE products you people here either manufacture, rep or sell. And with the European equivalent of the Fed NOT dropping interest rates today, the dollar is going to drop even more. Translation for you non-financial types: Amar's overseas business is going to grow, exponentially, and he is going to be a very happy man as his privately-held company achieves even greater earnings as more of his speakers get shipped overseas. And the stuff you bring in from your overseas suppliers is going to grown even more expensive.

And if you want to argue with me, well, go into any Wal-Mart or any other big box store and you will always see something from his company sold in these stores. Distribution none of you here will ever achieve, unless you work for Apple or Bose.

And yet, rather than celebrate and try and emulate his success, most in the CE industry 'diss his product line (particularly his speakers) and recite the corporate mantra that Bose is over-priced crappy product that no person with reasonable hearing would buy.

Well, to those of you who really believe this, keep believing it while Bose keeps kicking your ass back to the Stone Age.

End of rant.

As I keep saying, like a broken record, the issue is NOT HD-DVD vs. Blue-Ray formats - The issue is how soon 720p VOD and iTV downloads will make these physical media obsolete.

As always, YMMV, of course, but for you hardware junkies, your ship has hit that paradigm shift iceberg and is headed down. If you do NOT recognize the paradigm shift that is happening and adapt to it, in your next job, you will be saying quite often, "Would you like fries with that?"
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Last edited by Vinyl Rules!; 02-07-2008 at 08:18 PM..
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