Could Warner Bros. Abandon HD DVD in 2008?

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

Just because Bill Hunt HONESTLY tells us his opinion about which way the format-war will ultimately end does not make him dishonest nor suggest that he misrepresents what he hears when sharing industry information.

On the contrary, someone who obviously prefers one format and slants their comments towards favoring that agenda, tells balanced posters to "calm down" when they ask for documented sources of information, but does *not* honestly profess their opinion in favor of that format, gives cause for suspician.

Ok this is uncalled for. You claim Bill Hunt is an honest man, and then imply I am not. This is the kind of stuff that lead to the nonsense at AVS. You're not a balanced poster, you're attacking my honesty because I posted that BD was more expensive and that among other reasons is why WB would go HD DVD. That is not healthy behavior by you. I asked for Doby Blue to calm down and those like him (you would obviously fit that bill from this statement of yours). Why? Because he claimed I was "paid to post," which is an absurdly paranoid thing.

I do not see the need for EITHER side to attack relentlessly on small points. As if those small points changed the bigger picture. First it was "Amazon rankings mean nothing," on one side and "BD DL are fantasy," on the other. I don't understand the mentality. I especially don't understand your need to attack my honesty.

I have no side in this. I just want HIGH DEF CONTENT for the masses at a good cost. I don't care which side does that. I will say this, the only honesty of Bill Hunt that I know of is his reminder that he's not a journalist and never claimed to be one. He runs a fan site, and does not run a legitimate news outlet. That's from him. He is Pro-BD and doesn't deny it. He gets gifts, special treatment, etc. from the BD Group. He denies that means he's "bought," but it is the very definition of it.

Quit trying to attack small points it doesn't change the bigger picture. Nothing you post will make me think that BD is less expensive or that it offers anything substantially better than HD DVD. Just like nothing will make me think that HD DVD offers better picture.

The DVD Forum APPROVED 51GB discs and they were told a firmware update should work with all players. That's a fact. Pointing to someone who can't name a source and then having that person say "maybe," is well pointless. There are 51GB titles now in the pipeline at Universal.

So I suppose we have to wait and see how that nightmare turns out. Because it will be a nightmare with firmware updates.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by TheMoose

Dude get a grip & read this carefully.
We agree that at least for now BD does cost more, what we are saying & you are not addressing is the fact your yield figures are just plain wrong!!

Can you show us Facts that your yield numbers are correct or are you just going to pretend I'm attacking you because I'm asking for proof of your figures?

I'm more than willing to have a discussion with you, however when I say something is my opinion I state that is just that, an opinion, I expect you to either state it's opinion or back up your facts with proof.
As you say this is not AVS forum, we don't take opinion as fact, we want actual correct information, not rumors or bashing.
Opinions are more than welcome, just state them that way.

This is in no way an attack on you, just a request for proof that your yield numbers are correct.

I can point to articles, posts on AVS by Industry Insiders, etc. from August stating those numbers I posted. I can point to a Replicator that in August was unwilling to invest in BD DL due to "low yields." The problem here is that Doby Blue suggests they are lying. He made a statement that the "3 replication centers putting out BD DL discs," was also a lie. However at a BD function I heard them specifically mention that they only had 3 facilities. I can't post a link to my memory.

I also contacted Panasonic myself. Because I'm not on either side. I don't want to be passing around "FUD," as some refer to it. My findings were that disc yields are not as low as rumors state on one side, but they aren't as high as Doby Blue suggested either. They however wouldn't tell me what the number really was. They were also unwilling to say if they pressed discs for Disney or Fox. What they did say was that BD yields aren't as good as HD DVD yields.

So all I know is it's not 10% anymore, nor is it as good as 85% either.

If I post a link to Paramount's CTO stating the 3 replicator BD DL thing, Doby is just going to say it's a lie. If I post to MS' VP stating the same thing, again he's just going to state that it's a lie.

Perhaps since what I post is generally considered common knowledge (that BD DL has low yields) it should be Doby Blue posting a link to proof of his statements?

Again, I don't think it really matters. It will not change the basics of my arguement that WB would go HD DVD. BD is still more expensive. Which everyone agrees to. I'm willing to say "sure BD DL have great yields," because arguing about it is pointless to the overall picture and it seems to get other people to act poorly.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by TheMoose

Dude get a grip & read this carefully.
We agree that at least for now BD does cost more, what we are saying & you are not addressing is the fact your yield figures are just plain wrong!!

Can you show us Facts that your yield numbers are correct or are you just going to pretend I'm attacking you because I'm asking for proof of your figures?

I'm more than willing to have a discussion with you, however when I say something is my opinion I state that is just that, an opinion, I expect you to either state it's opinion or back up your facts with proof.
As you say this is not AVS forum, we don't take opinion as fact, we want actual correct information, not rumors or bashing.
Opinions are more than welcome, just state them that way.

This is in no way an attack on you, just a request for proof that your yield numbers are correct.

Also I can point to a Sony rep saying that yields were at 75% and that was "dramatically," better than before. This from October. If yields reported in early August were from say June could it have been 38%? Certainly that would be a dramatic increase?

[DaViD Boulet]

It may very well be that in Aug the 35% yield rate you quote was correct. I think the dispute was that your original proposal of that rate was linking it to current production yeilds (which would exaggerate the perceptionof current costs beyond what they really are).

You're not a balanced poster, you're attacking my honesty because I posted that BD was more expensive and that among other reasons is why WB would go HD DVD.

Seems that you're not winning awards for balance yourself. And I'm not bothered by you stating the FACT that BD is more expensive. I've agreed with that statement all along (as has everyone else contesting some of your assertions). I'm sorry if it sounded like I took an "AVS" turn. It sounded to me like that happened when you discounted Bill Hunt's honesty. The fact that we can hear different things from different insiders/industry sources is nothing new, and doesn't necessarily imply dishonesty. Naturally, the arrival of real-world 51GB media will demonstrate the reality when it gets here.

And one last time:

No one here is arguing that BD costs less than HD DVD. The fact that no one is arguing that, yet you keep returning to that as though it's a proven point that we're disputing, seems like side-stepping the valid points that are being made. The only "dispute" about that point is in regards to how much less, and for how long will those discprepencies have real-world production implications, which is a more subjective discussion as there isn't much objective data to be shared (from either side).

I think if we all could take a moment and distinguish between objective "fact posting" and subjective "assumptions about costs based on present and future conjecture" (on both sides... not just you) we'd be able to communicate with less appearance of adversarial retort.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

It may very well be that in Aug the 35% yield rate you quote was correct. I think the dispute was that your original proposal of that rate was linking it to current production yeilds (which would exaggerate the perceptionof current costs beyond what they really are)..

Again I posted what I though was accurate and admited from the get go that the numbers may have changed. They obviously have, but 1 out of 4 at one facility and one out of 5 having to be thrown away still isn't good.

I'm sorry if it sounded like I took an "AVS" turn. It sounded to me like that happened when you discounted Bill Hunt's honesty. The fact that we can hear different things from different insiders/industry sources is nothing new, and doesn't necessarily imply dishonesty.

Bill Hunt is a bought and paid for Pro BD internet outlet. He admits receiving gifts and special treatment. He claims that doesn't mean he's bought. He has routinely spreaded all out lies about MicroSoft and it appears 51GB discs. He can't quote anyone and refers to "toshiba representatives."

Toshiba has denied his claims. MicroSoft has denied his claims. However it is obvious people continue to believe him and post nonsense. Bill Hunt's defense is that he's not a journalist and he doesn't have to prove his "opinions."

[DaViD Boulet]

Bill Hunt is a bought and paid for Pro BD internet outlet.

Because he posts pro-BD opinions? Are you bought and paid for because you post pro-HD DVD opinions?

He admits receiving gifts and special treatment.

Sure, from the whole industry. Like being invited to BD, DVD, and HD DVD events. Like studio screeners from BD and HD DVD studios alike. I think at one event they gave away Panasonic BD players. I'm sure Toshiba hardware has found its way into the hands of on-line reviewers as well.

I'm a media reviewer at DVDfile.com, and before that a DVD reviewer for thehometheaterforum. I receive free DVDs and Blu-ray Discs. I can assure you that the "free gift" of those discs never once has caused me to color a DVD review favorably: I'm brutally honest in every review and criticize the studios when they don't properly present a title. I see no reason to assume another internet voice would behave any differently.

He has routinely spreaded all out lies about MicroSoft and it appears 51GB discs. He can't quote anyone and refers to "toshiba representatives."

He routinely posts his OPINION and belief that MS is out to keep the format war on shaky-ground. Many industry folks (like Fox and Disney) happen to agree with him. It's not "lying" to say what you think. It's "lying" to state something as fact that you know is not true. To say that you believe something to be true in the absence of hard-data, as Bill has done with his editorials on MS, is called opinion.

Toshiba has denied his claims.

Sure, Toshiba has denied his claims that they've taken losses on products that they've low-ball priced in the past. Naturally they would. Any manufacturer would do so whether or not such claims were true to maintain PR.

Has Toshiba denied his report that 51GB HD DVD might not be compatible with existing hardware?

MicroSoft has denied his claims. However it is obvious people continue to believe him and post nonsense.

Of course they did. Why would MS admit to the goal of keeping the HD-disc market in flux if it was true? Do you honestly think they'd answer truthfully if it was indeed the case? I'm not suggesting that their denial proves that they *are* intending such influence. But their denial hardly proves that they aren't.

In any case, I find it ironic, and rather humorous, that you don't believe Bill Hunt, who has no financial stake in the matter, when he claims that his opinion is his own honest belief; yet you believe MS when they deny statements that would damage their reputation given their enormous financial interests in the outcome of this format war.

Bill Hunt's defense is that he's not a journalist and he doesn't have to prove his "opinions."

He is not a journalist. He's a guy sharing his opinion on his very own website and he's always clear when he's sharing information versus opinion. And NO ONE HAS TO PROVE THEIR OPINIONS. That's what "opinions" are: subjective, personal evaluations that cannot be proved. If they could be proved, they wouldn't be opinions any longer; they'd be fact.