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Old 08-08-2009   #7
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Default Re: I have given up on dealers. Does anyone else feel the same?

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Originally Posted by wes View Post
I can not agree more these Dealers think they have a monopoly, which is why like you I don't mind driving several hours to save thousands of dollars The dealers that dont get it will continue loosing customers, now if only we could deregulate health care and be able to shop across state lines we would not need nationalized health care
Well, jeez it couldn't possibly be because people are "demanding" that they lower their retail price to the same or lower than 'Crazy Internet Eddie' who has no overhead and doesn't have to actually employ anybody or pay them a living wage with benefits. Oh, and have you tried getting warranty service from 'Crazy Internet Eddie'? No, you probably went to your local dealer and expected them to take care of your internet purchased product and got mad at them when they told you they only can service what they sell. Yeah, the nerve those big meanies.

Seriously, you all lament dealers, but then you buy online. What do you expect exactly? Oh, you want them to sell cheaper than you can get it online. And ef the fact that there are living breathing people there who work there for a living, and who actually can offer, advice, support, installation, etc. that 'Crazy Internet Eddie' cannot. Because they are....shudder.....salespeople. So ef not only those evil salespeople, but their families too right? Oh, except for when you have a question and need to burn their time for a while before you go out and find it cheaper online.

And you all scream for discounts, but then pay full asking price for the Oppos and Outlaws of the world. Ever compared an Oppo to a comparably priced Pioneer Elite? Who needs to, the forum says its the bestest ever! The only people who think otherwise are those big bad dealers and their big bad salespeople.

To those of you use the internet for some research and then support your local specialty dealer, I thank you. The rest of you can go take your chances with Eddie and you deserve what you get.....just like those big bad salespeople do!!!
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Old 08-08-2009   #8
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Default Re: I have given up on dealers. Does anyone else feel the same?

I suppose it is because of the anonymity of the web that people feel that they can be rude and express their anger in uncivil way. Frankly, that just ends the discussion. We can continue this but in a civilized manner.

1. No one here posted anything about internet sales and specifically, Crazy Eddie who I did not know about. But as for internet shopping, welcome to the 21st century. The people who have internet sites also have families. But so do I, and I do what is best for us.

2. Internet shopping has not displaced anything; rather it has replaced mail order catalogs. Until the 1980s, stores like Lafayette, Radio Shack and Chushfield have sold stereo equipment without stores. Even Sears sold electronics over them mail. Both Mail order and Internet stores can offer products to parts of the country that simply do not have dealers, or dealers with the brands the consumer wants. Americans have always traded “full service” for lower prices. Many internet stores have great and easy return policies and tech support over the phone. My brother just bought a Blu-ray player for $225 from Amazon, when the local store priced it at $300 and would not take a penny off. He has a family too and would like to spend that $75 on them.

3. Why get mad at the consumer if he is doing what you do when you shop for a car, gasoline or anything else. Don’t you look for sales or lower prices? I shop at Costco for lower prices on food and, honestly, do not stay awake at night worrying about my local supermarket.

4. I wish that all salespeople were informed. I go into store to be greeted by a part time person who does not know very much, and gives me incomplete or wrong information. (I love it when they tell me that they have the exact model of what they are trying to sell me at their own home! But often don’t know how to use it.)

5. Price fixing is generally illegal, but dealer often do that. They even check up on each other to make sure that the “expensive and exclusive” brands are not sold at a lower price. This is America, competition is good. Haven’t you gone to two different dealers to get the best price on a car, stove, refrigerator or anything else.

6. I buy virtually of my equipment from the local dealer and I would not want to sacrifice service for a little money. Except a lot of dealers have bad service and no real tech support (meaning no one to answer my questions. But why would you complain if someone opts to buy a different product somewhere else. Your implication, of course, is that your opinion is the only one that is correct and people could not prefer Oppos (which I have never heard of) to Pioneer.

7. That gets into another issue. If a dealer cannot convince you that his stuff is better they often go to the “there all the same” route. I have actually, twice, been insulted by a dealer for wanting a different product than he sold.

8. Finally, just last week, I wanted to buy a “Y” cable using balanced connectors and not the traditional RCA ones. The local stores wanted $300 and $600 for them. I got them at an on-line place my friend uses for $25. I’m happy. So is my family.
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Old 08-08-2009   #9
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Default Re: I have given up on dealers. Does anyone else feel the same?

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Originally Posted by Lefisc View Post
8. Finally, just last week, I wanted to buy a “Y” cable using balanced connectors and not the traditional RCA ones. The local stores wanted $300 and $600 for them. I got them at an on-line place my friend uses for $25. I’m happy. So is my family.
Where did you buy it I am looking for Y XLR cables I agree 100% with your comments Amazon rules. All my B&W I bought at 25% off from a dealer who was willing to negotiate

By the way Oppo BDP-83 is the king of Blu Ray
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Old 08-08-2009   #10
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Default Re: I have given up on dealers. Does anyone else feel the same?

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Originally Posted by Lefisc View Post
I suppose it is because of the anonymity of the web that people feel that they can be rude and express their anger in uncivil way. Frankly, that just ends the discussion. We can continue this but in a civilized manner.

1. No one here posted anything about internet sales and specifically, Crazy Eddie who I did not know about. But as for internet shopping, welcome to the 21st century. The people who have internet sites also have families. But so do I, and I do what is best for us.

2. Internet shopping has not displaced anything; rather it has replaced mail order catalogs. Until the 1980s, stores like Lafayette, Radio Shack and Chushfield have sold stereo equipment without stores. Even Sears sold electronics over them mail. Both Mail order and Internet stores can offer products to parts of the country that simply do not have dealers, or dealers with the brands the consumer wants. Americans have always traded “full service” for lower prices. Many internet stores have great and easy return policies and tech support over the phone. My brother just bought a Blu-ray player for $225 from Amazon, when the local store priced it at $300 and would not take a penny off. He has a family too and would like to spend that $75 on them.

3. Why get mad at the consumer if he is doing what you do when you shop for a car, gasoline or anything else. Don’t you look for sales or lower prices? I shop at Costco for lower prices on food and, honestly, do not stay awake at night worrying about my local supermarket.

4. I wish that all salespeople were informed. I go into store to be greeted by a part time person who does not know very much, and gives me incomplete or wrong information. (I love it when they tell me that they have the exact model of what they are trying to sell me at their own home! But often don’t know how to use it.)

5. Price fixing is generally illegal, but dealer often do that. They even check up on each other to make sure that the “expensive and exclusive” brands are not sold at a lower price. This is America, competition is good. Haven’t you gone to two different dealers to get the best price on a car, stove, refrigerator or anything else.

6. I buy virtually of my equipment from the local dealer and I would not want to sacrifice service for a little money. Except a lot of dealers have bad service and no real tech support (meaning no one to answer my questions. But why would you complain if someone opts to buy a different product somewhere else. Your implication, of course, is that your opinion is the only one that is correct and people could not prefer Oppos (which I have never heard of) to Pioneer.

7. That gets into another issue. If a dealer cannot convince you that his stuff is better they often go to the “there all the same” route. I have actually, twice, been insulted by a dealer for wanting a different product than he sold.

8. Finally, just last week, I wanted to buy a “Y” cable using balanced connectors and not the traditional RCA ones. The local stores wanted $300 and $600 for them. I got them at an on-line place my friend uses for $25. I’m happy. So is my family.
I will apologize for getting agro and letting out a bit of a rant. Certainly not all deserved it. However, if you seriously wanna play the civility card, the title of the thread is "I have given up on dealers...".

I'll address your points one by one....

1) Yes, the guy selling gray market gear out of his apartment may indeed have a family and we certainly don't want him and his gray market gear to clutter up the living room when they're trying to watch Judge Judy thru the piles of stuff he hopes to pawn off on unsuspecting people who think they're getting manufacturer supported gear.

2) Internet sales have too impacted retailers. Price hacking, and selling volume in place of margin with no support required. Buyer beware and when all is said and done, did you really save that $75?

3) I find a good business to buy from and then buy from them and usually go by their recommendation, since they do it for a living, and an hour of internet research does not make me or anyone an expert. If you base your purchases exclusively on price, then I've no doubt you've saved money, but have a nagging doubt that you have the right things in any given product category.

4) Go into better stores. Quit going to big box stores and go to your local specialty retailer instead. Most offer price matching for products in common with other local dealers and are more price competitive than you might think. Just don't expect them to match the Judge Judy watching guy wearing sweat pants in his apartment hoping he made his website look credible enough to convince people he wasn't a crook.

5) Better brands do not allow dealers to sell outside their market. They want their dealers to be able to offer local support and service. But as you mention, most just don't seem to care.....until they need service.

6) My opinion is not always correct. But I am a professional and I don't make recommendations without doing analysis. People can look and decide for themselves and if they decide on something other than what appears to me to be the better product, that is indeed their perogative.

7) Again, go to a better dealer. You'd probably get fired for doing that here. You never sell against what you carry by bashing the other guys stuff. You lose all credibility. You should be aware of it and knowledgeable about it, so that you're a true consultant and not just an ideological zealot.

8) Where the ef are you shopping at? Any reasonable dealer will not recommend a $600 Y-adaptor unless the system warrants it. And it'd have to be a heck of a system for a $600 Y-adaptor.

Point being, a lot of people use their local dealer for demonstration, promising to come back, and then go buy online. These same people then want/expect service as if they'd bought from you. It's insulting. Frankly, the internet has hurt brick and mortar dealers and audio/videophiles may soon find that most if not all of their choices are only available if they buy online because they're running dealers with nice showrooms out of business. Now go have fun with your family and that $75 you saved and go buy something from Amazon. Then drive by and lament that book dealer that just went out of business. You know, that cool one that let you read for hours without buying anything and had local authors and poets come by to read their stuff. That one.
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Old 08-08-2009   #11
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Default Re: I have given up on dealers. Does anyone else feel the same?

First, I have really lost my faith in dealers, hense the title. You feel that expressing any negative feelings towards a dealer is “uncivil” and incorrect. How else do I express it?

1. Who said anything about Grey Market? I am discussing how real dealers give me problems and you are bringing up side issues, irrelevant, that irritate you. Not everyone on the web, and certainly no one I have dealt, with are grey market dealers.
2. Yes, he really did save that money. Many items, working properly need no tech support. Those that don’t work can be returned, when bought from a reputable on line dealer like Amazon.
3. Stores recommend ONLY what they stock and that may not be the best for me. Good luck if you feel the salesperson is deciding what is best for you. First, he may have little knowledge; I don’t give him a test before I walk into the store. Second, (and let me say this politely) I would be naďve (I want to say foolish) to think he is acting in my interest. Further, the store here that sells Pioneer will NOT be selling their TVs anymore. Now I felt the Elite TV were the best, but they won’t have them. Do I just buy whatever new brand they get or decide I want a Panasonic which I have to get elsewhere? My friends who were salesman often pushed the units they got the most commissions for. You know that to be true.
4. “Go into better stores.” Sadly there are fewer and fewer of them. Your right, I had (and still do) use the local stores but most are gone and many now don’t stock much but just order what thay can. In other words, the concept of what you described, going to a store that has inventory is fading (at least in my neighborhood). Their business seems to have changed from stocking items to installations.
5. I’m not picking on you, honest. You said, “Better brands do not allow dealers to sell outside their market.” Well, Mark Levinson, for example, no longer has any stores in New York or New Jersey. You have to go “out of market” if I want to buy something. So why not find the best price if I have to shop elsewhere. And that really means no easy service.
6. I should stop numbering because this is really the same topic. I used to be able to compare a few products (recommended by friends or I read about it) but the stores are not there. And my STRONG point to you the few remaining dealers are not helpful. For example, hones, I had to travel to see the Krell 707 to a dealer, none were local. It took weeks to set up an appointment. Please understand my frustration when I got there the dealer did not have the unit set up and would not turn it on for me! (I think he thought I was all ready to buy it. If it was good I would have). Instead he insisted that I MUST buy an Esoteric DVD player and played that for me! Of course he played the $17,000 player. I kept asking to see the Krell in Action, to no avail. You say go to another store, but there wasn’t one! Locally that is. So that is my point about dealers, he made it impossible to buy.
7. All my stories begin with I went to a dealer but…Not I went on-line etc. Many dealers have given good advice. Listen, no one is saying you wouldn’t do your best, but it is hard to separate your kind of salesmanship from the other kind. The above Krell dealer had a very different intent than you but was saying the same thing: “Trust me, I know what is best.” Buy this unit without seeing it work. (PS the Unit was first shipped unable to do DTSHD and that was something he didn’t want to share with me)
8. I called the dealer I bought my Transparent Cable then Straight Wire. Again, the small stores really left here about the year 2000.

I agree with you on the last point. My friend owned a Camera Store in the 1960s-1980. People would come in and ask a ton of questions then go to the back of the Photo magazines and buy the camera for 10% less. Then, they would come back into the store buy a roll of film and try to get a lesson on how to use their camera. A point to you was NOT that this was right, but that this was going on before the internet.

My bigger point is that the Krell dealer took a day out of my life and was not helpful or even polite. Or the dealers who wanted hundreds for a Y cable would not give me any alternatives.

One more story? I went out of my area (near my brothers house) to listen to the Revel Salon 2 speakers. I called and made an appointment, the guy was very nice. I asked to hear them on Krell amps, which he had.

I got there and they were attached to Marantz amps. If I wanted them, he wanted nearly full price, would not give me a trade in on my speakers (which is not uncommon) BUT I had to buy his display models which were Oak (I think) and I wanted Ebony to match everything in my room. He spent 30 minutes trying to convince me to get these.

One phone call (out of state) got me a great dealer who did everything I wanted. Good price, Trade in, Right color, new speakers.
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Old 08-08-2009   #12
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Default Re: I have given up on dealers. Does anyone else feel the same?

Some brick and mortar dealers just refuse to deal at all. The one I most frequented in Fort Worth was guilty of charging MSRP for everything, all the time, except a few times a year they'd have a 5% off sale. They have great service, but I always had that feeling of being screwed at the register.

Finally, other dealerships started carrying the brands and models I wanted, and were willing to deal - offering regular discounts of 10% - 20% off or more. My old shop in Fort Worth refused to match other brick and mortar prices, and no longer gets my business or any of my friend's business for that reason. But, I guess he really did not need it because the last time I saw him, he was showing everyone his new Ford GT.

My point is that a lot of these guys are just plain greedy, and maybe they deserve to go out of business.
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