Kaleidescape and Toshiba Claim 1080p Upscaling Players Rival Blu-ray

[The Kipnis Studios]

RIDICULOUS!!!!!

[DaViD Boulet]

t seems like we are in agreement then that regardless of whether the DVD content was originally shot on film or video, the resulting fields are interlaced. Your only point seems to be that the process of recombining the interlaced fields to produce progressive output (deinterlacing) doesn't lose any information. I see your point, there is no interpolation or scaling or anything else involved. And it should not produce artifacts, if done correctly. That is a very good point. Well taken. It is not directly in disagreement with anything I previously said, since I didn't say anything about whether information was lost or added in the deinterlacing step, only that an extra step was involved. Still, I guess you're right if you mean to say that ouputing the same information in a different way can not really be called "upconverting", since, after all, it is still the same information. And clearly the result will be the same whether the player does the deinterlacing or the display does it. As long as they both perform the deinterlacing correctly the final result should be identical either way.

Precisely. That's exactly what I was trying to say.

On the other hand, when the source material was originally 60i, you can't just combine two adjacent interlaced fields since they were taken at different points in time, and would not mesh well if there was rapid movement during that 1/60th of a second. In that case the player really does have to interpolate to fill in the missing alternate lines of information. So, then it would be completely correct to say that in this case the "progressive scan" player really "upconverts"? In the case of 60i video the player has to "fill" the physical space by interpolation.

Yes, quite right. For the progressive-scan conversion of any *native* interlaced video signal, interpolation of some kind is utilized in order to "fill in the missing lines" with new information. Your thinking is 100% correct.

BTW, that's true of a Blu-ray or HD DVD player outputting a 1080p signal from native 1080i content (like programs shot on a 1080i HD cam) as well... not limited to standard definition.

In the case of the 24fps film, the player has to "fill" the temporal space, which is done by repetition, 3:2 cadence. Have I understood you correctly? Thanks again for the explanation.

EXACTLY. You've got a perfect understanding. Thanks for indulging me on my technical foray... these differences may seem subtle to some, but they're actually quite fundamental when we're talking about the type of "processing" getting applied to an image (and the same principles hold true for progressive-scan processing of HD images as well... though thankfully on Blu-ray "film" images are stored in true 24p form to begin with to ease processing demands for 1080p24 hardware).

[The Kipnis Studios]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

... though thankfully on Blu-ray "film" images are stored in true 24p form to begin with to ease processing demands for 1080p24 hardware).

Actually, film is stored at 24p (on BD and HD-DVD) because it originated in that form (24 frames per second) and this takes up less space than 30p (24 film frames + 12 duplicated fields created during the 2:3 pull-up process)!

[rex]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

Thanks for indulging me on my technical foray... .

DaViD,
On the contrary, I thank you for making your comment. You got me to understand something that I already knew, but hadn't completely thought thru. In fact your comment reminds me very much of one of my own previous posts concerning Blu-ray in which I quoted someone saying that there was no difference between 1080i and 1080p, (since the 1080i video contains all of the same information in a 1080p signal). See: http://www.avrevforum.com/showthread.php?t=1770&page=2

[luisranger2bn]

it's reality to know toshiba continue to war againts blu ray [ sony ] i don't know why but i think toshiba needs to accepted to draw that hddvd format and now to try to updated the dvd format, my question is toshiba try to used hddvd technology in dvd format? who knows i have toshiba hd-a3 and sony playstation3 no doubt i think toshiba do a better job in computer or something and forgett it.

[Dave Moritz]

IMHO Toshiba is acting like a spoiled little brat that did not get its way. They lost and now they are going to stomp there foot on the ground and say "I refuse to offer a Blu-ray player, I refuse to offer a Blu-ray player".

So instead of taking there lumps and then offering a Blu-ray player they think it is better to try any undermine the company that beat them. Because if Toshiba can not have there royalties from DVD and HD-DVD then they do not want Sony to profit from Blu-ray if Toshiba can help it. Now honestly is this the way a company acts to preserve its honor in Japan? Because I am sure there are plenty of Japanese companies that are ashamed. The only thing Toshiba is going to do is to cause other CE companies to back away and not want anything to do with Toshiba. Toshiba needs to co-exist with the other CE companies and who is going to want to deal with Toshiba with them acting the way they are.

I was going to upgrade my HD-A1 even though HD-DVD lost but after seeing how Toshiba is hell bent on hurting Blu-ray. I will drop that purchase and I will not even give a Toshiba 1080p display the chance of ending up in my HT. I will be looking to upgrade my current HDTV to a bigger display that is a native 1080p. So not only is Toshiba going to loose the sale of upgrading my HD-DVD player but I will not buy a Toshiba 1080p display. And I will not buy another Toshiba product and will not recommend any Toshiba products to anyone else.

I heard rumors that some thought Toshiba was going to do a scorched earth tactic when it realized that it lost the HD war. And if this is the way Toshiba is going to behave and treat other CE companies. Then I do not need to make another purchase of anymore Toshiba products!